tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post7431894467263877770..comments2023-12-13T05:38:56.001-06:00Comments on Gray Matter: Can 10mans and 25mans coexist? A Possible SolutionGraylohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-66342003110674057462010-05-04T21:50:17.828-05:002010-05-04T21:50:17.828-05:00Yeah...the attempt system caused my guild leader/o...Yeah...the attempt system caused my guild leader/officer/guywe'repuggingwithwho'sovergearedandacompletejackass to blow up at offtanks/maintanks/healers/reeeeeeeallystupiddps even more than usual.<br /><br />I like the concept behind what Blizzard is doing with the 10 man and 25 man loot, but it's going to create people that complain about 25 getting more loot, even though Blizzard SAID that's what was happening. Short memories. WoW players have them.<br /><br />All I know is, if I can get a legendary weapon doing 10 mans-even if it takes a bit longer- that will be ultimate proof that Blizzard wants to equalize it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05190348041632464685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-16882437366016424462010-05-03T16:31:02.692-05:002010-05-03T16:31:02.692-05:00I think Graylo's proposal to give exclusive ge...I think Graylo's proposal to give exclusive gems or enchants is contrary to what Blizzard is shooting for in Cataclysm and raidiing in general. They don't want exclusives for 25 man over 10 man anymore because it just makes people still feel obligated to run 25s for stuff they want even if they don't like the 25 man format. So the proposal is just an overt wish to keep things the way they are now, which doesn't really fix anything.<br /><br />I think the only way to have exclusives in 25 man is to also give exclusives to 10 man as well. Separate but different exclusives for 10 and 25. Make it so you can't have both exclusives, if you run 10 mans and get an exclusive, then you run 25 mans, you should have to turn in that exclusive to get the other one. You'd have to make a choice from the two exclusives and can't have both.<br /><br />For example, let's say that an exclusive mount drops from a 25 man raid in Cataclysm. Then say the following week that guild doesn't have the people to run 25 but instead decides to run 10 instead. The 10 man exclusive mount drops and the persona who wins it doesn't have the mount, then they can get it without any loss. But say they already have the 25 man exclusive mount, now they have to choose if they want to keep it, or trade it in for the 10 man version.<br /><br />This is just a general example that would keep both sides happy. Both get cool exclusive items, but can't have both exclusives and would make it so you wouldn't feel obligated to run either one and would have no better stats or advantage in battle (pve or pvp).<br /><br />I still personally think, and I've mentioned this several times although no one ever comments on it, that I really feel like the problem is in the fact that there are two raiding paths to begin with that are on different levels of difficultly, 10 and 25 man. I really believe the way to fix this is to make all "guilds" only 10 man raid capable by themselves, but create in the game a way to have 3 or more guilds create an Allegience and only the Allegience can do the 25 man raids. Mind you, loot still the same as 10 mans, just separate but exclusive rewards for 10s and 25s with no advantadge in numbers of achvmnts or loot quality or mounts etc, just different by looks. <br /><br />The thing that many many people still are forgetting in all of this speculation and argument, is that the new guild acheivement system and perks are where Blizz is going to try to make up for the lack of better loots for 25 mans. So overall, the fixes many people are suggesting are meaningless in the face of the looming changes to guilds and raiding in general.heezasheenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-3400366217081113212010-05-02T11:00:32.479-05:002010-05-02T11:00:32.479-05:00Nice read Graylo. I think this is one of those iss...Nice read Graylo. I think this is one of those issue where there is no right/wrong answer. You can't please all the people all the time and Blizzard knows that.Cevannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-76299869352020024022010-05-01T17:25:04.285-05:002010-05-01T17:25:04.285-05:00As others have said before me, whilst the system y...As others have said before me, whilst the system you propose is definitely a workable one (in theory at least, which is all we can do at this stage...namely speculate), essentially it still gives the 25-man raids something the 10-man raids cannot get.<br /><br />Yes, enchants and gems would sift from 25's to 10's via the AH and general trade, however if you are an enchanter who only raids 10-mans then you are not able to get the recipes, which leaves you out in the cold. In other words, those who would wish to remain cutting edge would again be forced to raid 25-mans. Status quo present day.<br /><br />Blizzard have stated several times that the choice between a 25-man raid and a 10-man should be a choice based on personal preference and NOT gear or loot.<br /><br />I do believe that some 25-man guilds may fold due to this. But they will be the ones who do it mainly for loot and epics. If you truly like 25-mans, then you will continue doing them. If you don't like them, then you'll do what you enjoy instead. Which essentially is the purpose of a game, is it not?Kiharahttp://www.furiously.eunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-64732775077710004682010-05-01T10:00:09.237-05:002010-05-01T10:00:09.237-05:00"What if 25man raids were the exclusive sourc..."What if 25man raids were the exclusive source of raid resources like epic gems and BiS enchants?"<br /><br />Didnt they implement this to come extent in the current content (ulduar) with enchanting. I hate that they hide these much sought after recipes behind a raid wall. Put them in 10 mans and let everyone get them, or have two versions, like the buff foods, only X difference in stats but you know that if you could, you would get the better one but you dont feel like crap if you dont have it at all.Shellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-65492399799458770602010-05-01T03:03:48.471-05:002010-05-01T03:03:48.471-05:00@Dawni
Not necessarily. 25 mans were more complex...@Dawni<br /><br />Not necessarily. 25 mans were more complex simply because they were tuned that way. The fact that there are more people inside the raid only meant tighter executions of boss fights because the fights were designed for 25 mans and then made easier for 10 mans. <br /><br />but this isnt the only philosophy of creating an encounter. There are only 2 reccurent difficulties which make 10 mans fundamentally easier than 25 mans.<br /><br />1) Human Error: i.e. more people who can screw up in 25 mans. (as in 1 guy can wipe the raid in both cases - not death and loss of his dps etc)<br /><br />2) Positioning Factor: more room to spread in 10 mans. Which can be easily tuned by giving AOE spells a larger radius in 10man.<br /><br />Lets take a couple of fights and explain in particular what I mean.<br /><br />Deathbringer is exactly the same fight in 10 and 25 man, no big differences there(except maybe some positioning factor, but its not a big issue).<br /><br />Blood Queen: beyond a tighter enrage timer in 25 man, the parts that make 10 man easier are the positioning aspect (all must be spread on her blood bolt part) and the biting aspect (finding your target among 24 more people) <br /><br />Sindragosa, again, not too much of a difference between 10 and 25, except that 25 man means more ppl who can screw up and block the whole raid.<br /><br />Putricide, again, identical fights, except more room to maneuver in 10 man. <br /><br />So in all these fights, I really cant see the extra complexity you are talking about. So for me, the only fight mechanics that are harder in 25 mans beyond those 2 elements I explained (human factor and positioning), is the Blood Queen Fight, where you virtually have to interract with other raid members. You give me other examples if you think of any!Quicksilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02514588622395952812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-65358300846927967162010-04-30T14:47:39.999-05:002010-04-30T14:47:39.999-05:00@Okrane
I don't think you are seeing my meani...@Okrane<br /><br />I don't think you are seeing my meaning of complexity in a broad enough context. I wasnt meaning organization in just a numeric sense, as in getting people to fill a raid or bring x,y,z classes. Its that the entire encounter has to be scaled up which adds more variables, more considerations, and distributes the responsibility to a greater number of people at the same time. All these things will <b>often</b> make things more difficult. Obviously this can be balanced around over tuning like Sarth3D but that brings back the original problem of limiting what content the majority will be able to see. <br /><br />From what it looks like blizzard plans to scale the encounter difficulty(hp,dps,etc) to be generally equivalent across the zones, but in doing so they can't counter the inherent added complexity of additional people being factors in the 25m raids. At some point something has to give either blizzard has to admit a new favoritism towards 10's and basically kill off 25's in the process, or they will have to continue(as they have stated - and gray quoted) that 25's are in fact deserving of some kind of additional compensation due to the added difficulty/complexity.<br /><br />I appreciate the more well thought out response though.Dawninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-40563930158138247212010-04-30T12:51:34.018-05:002010-04-30T12:51:34.018-05:00and still 5v5 offers the same loot, and more arena...and still 5v5 offers the same loot, and more arena points.<br /><br />even more, ppl call the 5v5 bracket "the free glad. bracket"Quicksilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02514588622395952812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-42976140216411527852010-04-30T12:22:18.706-05:002010-04-30T12:22:18.706-05:00@Ephemeron
You don't know how much I love you...@Ephemeron<br /><br />You don't know how much I love your example. <br /><br />Yes, both the 3v3 and 5v5 formats of Arena are active. I never said that no one would do 25man pve. However you are ignoring some key facts.<br /><br />1. There used to be a third format (2v2) that was dropped because it was to difficult to balance in competetive Arena.<br /><br />2. There is nothing preventing a PvPer from participating in both 3v3 and 5v5.<br /><br />3. Competition PvP is done in the 3v3 format. Even Blizzards 2010 Arena Tournament is done only in the 3v3 format.<br /><br />So while both formats are active and available there is clearly a favored format.Graylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-87143727277404805942010-04-30T11:18:15.747-05:002010-04-30T11:18:15.747-05:00graylo when you say enchants do you mean scrolls o...graylo when you say enchants do you mean scrolls or patterns? I was thinking how the patterns for some enchants only dropped in certain instances on certain difficulties (bladeward etc). So you had to run that if you wanted to be able to craft that enchant. <br /><br />The problem is the gems and what not will not filter down most likely. At least the guild I ran BT with at the time never really sold any gems. They just stockpiled them in the guild bank in case they were needed later. If they got an excess of any time they just relaxed the rules for getting them from the guild. The main filtering of epic gems at that time onto the AH was from one very resourceful hunter that could solo the trash before teron and would farm there to make gold.<br /><br />If the future implementation of emblems/points is at all similar to the current ICC one where you need as many as possible to get geared faster I would think that will push a lot of the most hard core guilds towards 25 anyways. I don't feel that there needs to be anything exclusive. More of the same things should be the incentive. I know in my guild we had everyone farming frost emblems to get the max amount possible every week when ICC was released. That meant everone doing heroic daily every day, 25 mans, 10 mans, weekly, VoA. If you really want to be first you'll take any small advantage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-69941525114357939252010-04-30T11:16:54.521-05:002010-04-30T11:16:54.521-05:00There's no need to reinvent the bicycle, IMO.
...There's no need to reinvent the bicycle, IMO.<br /><br />If you want an example of two play formats that have a different size (and thus organizational/logistical difficulty), a reward system that varies only in quantity and not quality, and yet where both formats are alive and flourishing... look no further than 3v3 and 5v5 arena teams.Ephemeronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16403198085556121203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-40869867004904381532010-04-30T10:34:42.461-05:002010-04-30T10:34:42.461-05:00@Dawni (and everyone else)
Dude. Yes, 25 mans are...@Dawni (and everyone else)<br /><br />Dude. Yes, 25 mans are harder (to organize - not to execute - keep that in mind. A fight being easier or harder in 10 or 25 is just a matter of tuning (boss health, dmg, etc))<br /><br />So, if they are only harder to organize, then I believe the only people who get to have a say in this, are raid leaders. The ones that do the fucking work, you know.<br /><br />I haven't seen one raid leader complaining so far. All I see is people bitching that "the raid leaders wont have any incentives to run the raid". Well guess what? This sounds like e-peen moaning to me... (omg, that loser GM will choose to do what's fun for him for a while and I'll lose the leet epixx to afk in.)<br /><br />10 mans are easier to organize. Blizzard's stated policy is to prevent players from inflicting unhappiness upon themselves by over-playing the game. That's why weekly lockouts, scarce frost emblems, and gating existed. To save players from themselves. To stop that irresponsible nerd from killing himself while farming ICC for 23 hours a day, every day. To prevent burnout.<br /><br />So this change helps the leaders. Less hassle, and more importantly with the equality of loot, they won't "feel" that they "have" to run a 25 man, because that's where the serious raiding is. Equal chances mean, each leader gets to choose what type of raiding setting he prefers. And I repeat, the only ones that have a say in this that matters are the fucking raid-leaders.<br /><br />Those who lead 25 mans because they like the "epicness" of it, they will still do. And they will find sufficient adepts to follow because extra loot is a big motivator.<br /><br />Those who were doing it before because they were "forced" to do it because that was the path to success, will stop. Heaven forbid everyone does what they think its fun in this game.<br /><br />Exclusive rewards to 25 man raids will simply mean that it is still the "real" raiding.<br /><br />Plus. I dont believe this will even scratch 25 man raiding at the highest of levels. I believe that the progression model will combine 10 and 25 man raiding. More loot from 25 mans will mean faster gearing, so a quicker path to that [Realm First 10man Heroic]Quicksilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02514588622395952812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-23889432498606975442010-04-30T10:00:41.443-05:002010-04-30T10:00:41.443-05:00Okrane
So basically you make your point about 25&...Okrane<br /><br />So basically you make your point about 25's being about "feeling superior" by acting as though your admittedly preferred way is superior. Sterotypes and broad generalizations are usually the signs of stupidity and ignorance, so way to go there. <br /><br />If you took any time at all to think past your prejudices you might see that what the post stated is in fact accurate quite often, in many aspects of life people feel like the work invovled should corralate to the reward. Beyond "epeen" factor, 25m raids are more complex....thats not even disputed by rational people on either side....it just IS, so the people running them obviously would feel like they should be equally rewarded. That was pretty much the driving point behind the entire post.<br /><br />If you can't wrap you head around that then really there is no point in arguing with you because thats the crux of the matter. Hopefully you and other prejudices parties like yourself can look past your own biases and have reasonable discourse on the matter in the future.Dawninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-42189662407148783602010-04-30T08:22:04.353-05:002010-04-30T08:22:04.353-05:00I am actually lol-ing my ass off at all the e-peen...I am actually lol-ing my ass off at all the e-peeners moaning at the new announced changes, all demanding extra perks for their overinflated egos or running 25 mans.<br /><br />My subjective reason for not liking 25 mans: Framerate (got 5 in ICC25 and ~30 in ICC10). But this is besides the point.<br /><br />The point is, that if you <i>like</i> doing 25 mans you will still do them<br /><br />if you think 25 mans are more epic, you will run 25 mans for the reward of feeling this epicness<br /><br />if a raidleader likes the feeling of 25 mans he will work for it.<br /><br />but at the end of the day, when the shit comes to shove, 25 man raiders are just lootwhoring e-peeners who liked the feeling of superiority towards the rest of the world.<br /><br />You say that you prefer doing 25 mans because it feels epic and you like it more. This reward should be enough. Dont start asking for extra loot. It just proves how shallow you are. <br /><br />man... this blog had only professional and objective analisys so far... great way yo spoil it.Quicksilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02514588622395952812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-31244431213817029362010-04-30T07:36:08.585-05:002010-04-30T07:36:08.585-05:00@dacheng
Actually blizz is in favor of giving per...@dacheng<br /><br />Actually blizz is in favor of giving perks to 25 man raiders and they have said so. Graylo even quoted them saying so. <br /><br />Fact of the matter is it is harder to oragnize 25 man raids, they should get higher rewards.<br /><br />Graylo I love your idea of epic gems, more BoE, patterns dropping in 25 mans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-2030973748509873052010-04-30T07:03:42.594-05:002010-04-30T07:03:42.594-05:00I'm sorry, Graylo, but I have to agree with An...I'm sorry, Graylo, but I have to agree with Anonymous@1.53pm:<br /><br />Blizzard wants to give 10 man raiding guilds the same opportunities as 25 man raiding guilds. By requesting "perks" for 25-man guilds, such as exclusive drops of BoE gems or enchants, you seek to keep 10-man guilds behind 25-man guilds in the race to the endgame, so that 25-man guilds (who will be fully gemmed before the 10-man guilds get much access to these exclusive gems) will still be ahead of 10-man guilds in the race to the final boss. This isn't equality at all; you still want more than your 10-man brethren.<br /><br />I must question your premise that this is natural and fair. Your assumption is that 25-man guilds deserve something that 10-man guilds don't deserve, and this is exactly the attitude that Blizzard are trying to get away from in Cataclysm.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-87520493089424386752010-04-30T06:56:51.115-05:002010-04-30T06:56:51.115-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-73800980462274263342010-04-30T05:01:28.874-05:002010-04-30T05:01:28.874-05:00Hello, interesting post, again.
Honestly, I think...Hello, interesting post, again.<br /><br />Honestly, I think that if (hard mode only) encounters are tuned so that the 10-man allows for less mistakes than the 25-man, all of the problems are solved.<br /><br />You trade easier logistics in 10 for a slightly easier margin of error in 25 and everyone is happy.<br /><br />It happened before, by the way. Sartharion 3D 10 was harder than the 25 version (I mean before speed kills).<br /><br />Your idea of BoE stuff from 25 is sound enough, mind you. The only argument that I would oppose is that it would affect the economy pretty in a significant way, since 25-guilds would essentially be sellers, and 10-guilds, buyers (so, farmers, too). I'm not sure what kind of consequences that may have, but I'm pretty sure that if the only advantage 25-guilds have is "you make more gold", it may be a bit "meh" for them.Shantaram (EU K'T)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-30746774611346126572010-04-29T21:55:01.963-05:002010-04-29T21:55:01.963-05:00Firstly, authors are responsible for communicating...Firstly, authors are responsible for communicating their ideas well. A poorly written title will naturally make people jump to conclusions. The key to effective communication is stating your main points up-front and not in the end.<br /><br />Reading through your 2 posts, I still have the impression that you believe 25-man raiding is the pinnacle of raiding. From this post, I see that you want to protect this interest. For the record, I'm a 10-man raider but I believe 25-mans deserve a higher prestige.<br /><br />In the end, why not let the community decide which form of raiding is superior? If top-guilds such as Paragorn / For the Horde / Ensidia continue along the path of 25-man progression then I'm sure the community will value 25-man progression more. Why give 25-mans an artificial crutch on which to stand on? Why force guilds who may prefer 10-man raiding to do 25s?<br /><br />Come Cataclysm, I believe that 10-man raiding will be more popular than 25-man raiding since it is easier to organise. But 25-man raiders will then know that their fellow guild-mates are now doing 25-man raiding not for the loot but due to the fact that 25-mans is their preferred format. And I believe this is the better way.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18381576369055180683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-4464078928078901552010-04-29T16:19:10.930-05:002010-04-29T16:19:10.930-05:00As longs as it's OK to dream whimsically about...As longs as it's OK to dream whimsically about what Blizzard might do to improve raiding for everyone, what do you guys think about this:<br /><br />ALL equipment for a certain tier drops from raid bosses (10 or 25 man mode).<br /><br />Downing a boss (possibly more than once) opens up that boss' loot table to be purchased with valor points. It could theoretically take 10-15 boss kills to acquire enough points to purchase an item.<br /><br />25 man content grants you valor points at a moderately faster pace than 10 man content. The beauty of this scheme is that that pace can be controlled easily by Blizzard and fine tuned so that the "payoff" for 25 man content can be adjusted until there is a reasonable equilibrium between 10 and 25 man guilds.<br /><br />Essentially valor points would be used as a way to acquire pieces of gear you have not been lucky enough to see drop or win a roll on. The excitement of downing a new boss would increase, and they could also reduce the number of drops that a given boss yields. Also, the thrill of "winning" a new piece would still be there.Duskstormnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-624767828178746992010-04-29T16:16:50.749-05:002010-04-29T16:16:50.749-05:00It just seems like there is an inherent issue here...It just seems like there is an inherent issue here that Blizzard can’t fix.<br /><br />Organizing large raids is a fairly thankless task. No matter what Blizzard does to raids, the costs of organizing 25man raids fall disproportionately on an informal institutional structure—guilds and their leadership. In any guild, the mass of players who are simply raiders, while they are contributing, really aren’t bearing the brunt of the costs unless the leadership is not managing the guild effectively. In cases of poor management (or, situations where recruiting is difficult), the costs begin to shift onto the players—cancelled raids, unfair loot distribution, unpleasant guild atmosphere, etc—and then guilds die.<br /><br />A lot of the worries about this change seem to focus on the loss of better loot as an incentive to overcome the organizational issues. The better loot, and more opportunities for loot through running 10s and 25s, added in an incentive for both leadership and raiders to deal with the organizational costs. <br /><br />So, I’m not opposed to your suggestion to add some kind of incentives into the new system to outweigh the costs of running a 25man guild. But, I don’t know that it addresses the essential issue at the core—one that I’m not sure Blizzard can fix. <br /><br />Just from informal observation over time, I think the average raider really just wants a stable guild they are happy in to get nice shinies and see neat stuff. But, 25man guilds, at least on my server are extremely unstable. I’ve not thought this entirely through—but I’ve wondered before if they could increase the incentives for guild leaderships to organize 25mans and reward longevity if you’d just see people going to 10s or 25s based on a preference for raid type—versus now, where if a player’s incentive structure prioritizes the best loot they really have no choice. Maybe the new additions to the guild system will do this?AM1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-51108889918586818592010-04-29T15:59:49.115-05:002010-04-29T15:59:49.115-05:00Good suggestions Graylo. One thing though:
"...Good suggestions Graylo. One thing though:<br /><br />"Converting my Triumph emblems to Hero emblems means I have to talk to 4 different vendors..."<br /><br />There's a goblin in the sewer that changes currency. Still annoying but at least it's 1 dude instead of 4.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-41503361423795021662010-04-29T15:55:48.645-05:002010-04-29T15:55:48.645-05:00@Hana
If they followed my my suggestion to the le...@Hana<br /><br />If they followed my my suggestion to the letter then hording would definately occure and it would proabably take atleast a few weeks for 10man guilds to pick them up.<br /><br />I've had another thought. If I remember correctly at Blizzcon them mentioned allowing guilds to have a "guild currancy" that allowed them to buy reagents and mats like frost lotuses and such. They could manipulate that system to heavily favor 25man raiders, but I'm not sure it would have a significant impact.<br /><br />@Cain<br /><br />In my vision JCs and Enchanters wouldn't feel forced to run 25mans because the mats would be owned by the guild, not rolled on by the members. The JCs and Enchanters would just have to farm the AH like many do now.<br /><br />That said, I know there would be some people that feel forced to run 25mans under my suggestion. The beauty of my suggestion though is that it places a value on that need. If your fine playing 500g for a gem then 10mans are great for you. If Gems are 50g then you won't feel forced to raid 25mans. Basically it puts a value on your extra effort. You are rewarded for making a sacrifice or pay for the added convenience.<br /><br />The really problem with the two path system blizzard is proposing is they can't fix the fact that 25mans are logistically harder. They can't make them easier.<br /><br />From that perspective there is only two ways to fix it. 1. Provide 25mans with greater rewards, which would cause the current situation. or 2. Make 10mans logistically harder. My solution does a little of both.Graylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-51358769536559925592010-04-29T15:24:52.092-05:002010-04-29T15:24:52.092-05:00I will have to disagree with you on your possible ...I will have to disagree with you on your possible solution. Because then we will be back to where we are of feeling forced to raid one way over the other. If you are a JC or enchanter you will feel forced to raid 25 mans to get those things. <br /><br />Honestly, I think what you quoted about wrath vs starfire will end up being true anyways in that one will be greater than the other and that's where the very hard core will go. The problem arises if it's not just the very hard core that feel there is no option.<br /><br />I think if they do legendaries, gems, enchants, or any type of reward only in 25's then we'll end up right where we were in wotlk with the pressure to do that one. In order for them to be equal they must not have anything exclusive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-48421866401227144452010-04-29T15:05:14.109-05:002010-04-29T15:05:14.109-05:00Oh they are fixing broke things, they are just goi...Oh they are fixing broke things, they are just going to far each time. Sunwell was too hard, Naxx was too easy. To fix that they added hard modes, then a whole heroic lockout. With TOC we had too many raids, too much this and that, so ICC get rid of heroic mode, and if plans goes through as is, they'll be down to 1 raid per week from 4. The pendulum swings back and forth from one extreme to too far on another extreme. <br /><br />IMO Make 10s as hard as 25, same loot but leave the lockouts separate and use caps on badges and maybe on 'token drops' per week to make to limit how fast players can get gears. I would think weekly limits totals should be near 25+10 or 25+heroic dailies or 10+heroic dailies. Then people can still choose to do both 10 and 25 or 10/25 plus heroic dailies but not all three.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com