tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post944876960346518119..comments2023-12-13T05:38:56.001-06:00Comments on Gray Matter: Cataclysm ChangesGraylohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-9407135281614735242010-07-02T09:44:44.796-05:002010-07-02T09:44:44.796-05:00I have a possible solution to the 25 vs 10 gear pr...I have a possible solution to the 25 vs 10 gear problem. 25s and 10s could drop the same name gear (much like Icc and H Icc), but the gear would have different stats in 25 and 10 man. The 25 man gear would become identical to the 10 man gear in 10 mans, but the 10 man gear would not scale up to the 25 man. There would then be the incentive to run 25s for "better gear", but 10 man guilds would not feel forced to run 25 man content. There would be some funny hit cap scaling issues, but there could also be a higher hit cap required for 25 man bosses. This would keep the "better gear" in 25 mans, but it would also keep the 10 mans from being plowed through with 25 gear. Possible advantages to having 25 man gear would be bgs arena, world pvp, and heroics although if there were severe blancing issues and complaints related to this then I could see blizz equalizing the gear in ranked pvp.Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-7450823753177479832010-06-22T09:38:26.636-05:002010-06-22T09:38:26.636-05:00The solution is to go back to 40 man raids. ~nods,...The solution is to go back to 40 man raids. ~nods, completely seriously~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-634899973116912042010-06-18T03:36:28.775-05:002010-06-18T03:36:28.775-05:00Hmmmm...I do not beleive Blizzard will kill of 25-...Hmmmm...I do not beleive Blizzard will kill of 25-man...they try to support the majority of their gamers and give them what they like....its part of their business-plan...I think!<br /><br />But I believe that the decision to equal 10-man and 25-man gear is a brilliant decision...so you can get the best gear no matter what raid size you prefer.<br /><br />I think we will se raid size being choosen more by how your guild is organized than anything else.<br /><br />If your guild is small....you choose 10-man.<br /><br />If your guild is large, but has small groups of people ussually playing together, you will properly gravitate towards 10-man raids.<br /><br />If your guild is large and everyone is knows each other well....then you will probably choose 25-man raiding to have a good time with as many of your friends as possible.<br /><br />One more thing that I believe wil influence what raid size a guild chooses, is how many people wishes to lead a raid. If you have many people who wish to try and lead a raid, then there are likely more 10-man raids, and if your guild have few raid leaders, then you will probably gravitate towards 25-man raids.<br /><br />I believe there are far more variables in choosing the right raid size than merely how easy they are to organize.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06514040196273514054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-65470343655917960052010-06-17T20:08:58.759-05:002010-06-17T20:08:58.759-05:00@Wander
That is not what I'm saying. I'm ...@Wander<br /><br />That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying people prefer raiding over not raiding and that preference is stronger the the preference of 25man vs 10man, and that all otherthings being equal the players will gradually shift the more accessable format.<br /><br />To be clear 25man raiding won't go a way completely unless Blizzard removes it, but the community will dwindal much like the BG community did after Arena became the main form of PvP. <br /><br />The other question I have is where does this stop? Why shouldn't we be able to kill Arthas on 5man? I bet if we had access to the stats we would see a lot more people participating in 5mans then raid either format. Heck, why not get down to the 3man format like LotRO?<br /><br />Ultimately Blizzard needs to deside what they want to do, do it, and deal with the concequences. If that is a permanent move to 10mans, then it sucks for me but I then choose to play this game or not. But I don't think this situation were Blizzard is trying to have its cake and eat it to will work.Graylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-73718232529901809932010-06-17T17:58:38.520-05:002010-06-17T17:58:38.520-05:00wanderer - In my blog posts, I've been predict...wanderer - In my blog posts, I've been predicting a swift death of 25's to the point where Blizzard will eventually stop supporting them (likely 5.0).<br /><br />Why is Blizzard delaying the death of 25's? Mostly as an experiment to see if equal loot and two raid sizes (with heroic/regular modes) can actually work in a game.lissannahttp://www.restokin.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-48742732206396550542010-06-17T17:27:58.123-05:002010-06-17T17:27:58.123-05:00I think a brilliant way to solve the 10 man/25 man...I think a brilliant way to solve the 10 man/25 man dilemma is to offer the same ilvl loot in both raids, but not the same pieces. That way, people will want to run both 10 and 25 man, but there won't be burned out on either because you couldn't run both in one week. It would also add to progression challenges, as 25 man guilds would strive to be the both to complete both 10 and 25 man content as they are now, but there will still be incentive to run 25 mans, which is the chief concern of those of us who fear that 25 mans will fall by the wayside.<br /><br />You could make this even better if BOTH instances dropped TWO DIFFERENT ilvls of loot simultaneously. For example, make some of the ilvl 300 pieces drop in 10 man, and make some of the ilvl 310 pieces drop in 10 man. Similarly, some ilvl 300 drop in 25 man, some ilvl 310 drop in 25 man.Talshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-54349745044721396822010-06-17T17:08:20.723-05:002010-06-17T17:08:20.723-05:00@Graylo
If I understand your argument you are sayi...@Graylo<br />If I understand your argument you are saying that there aren't enough raiders who actually prefer 25 mans to keep the community alive.<br />If that's so then why should Blizzard support them at all?Wanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10265868294495405670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-81802758995390176082010-06-17T16:44:13.514-05:002010-06-17T16:44:13.514-05:00@Graylo
You make some great points, but the issue...@Graylo<br /><br />You make some great points, but the issue still is what type of incentive you're looking for. The problem becomes finding something that rewards people for the extra organizational difficulty and yet doesn't feel as though it's penalizing all those who prefer the smaller sized raids. <br /><br />There are two ways I can see that working out. One is through the ideas they've already proposed of a) more loot per person and b)more emblems. Obviously, as you said in this article, you fear that won't be enough. The only other option I see, and this is tentative given the nature of gamers, is to implement 25-man specific rewards such as mounts or titles. Even that may not work, the allure of a cool title or mount could shift a lot of players toward 25s. I do, however, see it as a viable way to reward the extra organization of 25s without penalizing the 10s.Mattrickhoffmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-24599087239007730642010-06-17T15:06:02.603-05:002010-06-17T15:06:02.603-05:00@Mattrickhoffman
Again, I disagree.
1. First of...@Mattrickhoffman<br /><br />Again, I disagree. <br /><br />1. First off, I completely disagree with the arguement "I enjoy 10mans raids more, but I am forced to run 25mans raids for the better gear." That is complete nonsense. If you truly enjoyed 10man raiding more then, you would only run 10man raids.<br /><br />What that arguement really is saying is "I perfer the 10man size over the 25man size, but I value the better gear of 25mans more then I value the smaller raid size."<br /><br />Now, I realize you're enjoyment would be increased if you had a smaller raid size with the better gear. I think that is a perfectly fine position to have, but no one should kid themselves into thinking they are being forced to do something they don't enjoy.<br /><br />2. Second, lets assume for a second that Blizzard is able to perfectly balance 25man raids vs 10man raids. The only difference between the two is raid size. This would result in three types of raiders.<br /><br />A. Raiders who prefer 25mans for what ever reason.<br /><br />B. Raiders who prefer 10mans for what ever reason.<br /><br />C. Raiders who don't care what size they raid.<br /><br />Raiders who definately prefer one raid size over another will gravitate to the size they prefer. The battle is over the people who don't care, and they will choose the side that offers them the most reward. If everything else is equal then that side will be 10mans most of the time because of the ease of organization. This will likely result in a larger 10man community and smaller 25man community. When the 25man guilds go trough the normal organizational issues that all guilds go through the 25man raiders will have a harder time finding new guilds that fit their desires due to the smaller 25man community. Some will find new 25man guilds. Some will settle for 10man guilds, and some will quit the game (granted this can occure in reverse but I don't see it happening as frequently). In the end I think this will result in an ever declining 25man raiding community resulting in its eventual death.<br /><br />Now, I realize that that isn't a big deal for people who prefer 10mans. In my opinion it would be a shame if 25man raiding died, but I don't see how it will survive as a significant community if players aren't given an incentive to participate given the increased organizational issues.Graylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-29951225782072323522010-06-17T13:58:11.001-05:002010-06-17T13:58:11.001-05:00@Mattrickhoffman
"But, there is more room for...@Mattrickhoffman<br />"But, there is more room for people to mess up." This isn't really the case until your raid overgears the fight. If you remember the first month and a half of ICC, Saurfang wasn't a push over for most guilds. The guilds who blew through him were decked out in 258 ilvl gear and were used to healing though Anub 25H. After you outgear a fight all bets are off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-21528895604175835702010-06-17T13:47:57.203-05:002010-06-17T13:47:57.203-05:00@Mattrickhoffman
You mention positioning as the on...@Mattrickhoffman<br />You mention positioning as the only thing that made 25 mans harder. "but raids these days are designed to fit 25 people so that's not really that big an issue." This sounds like you haven't done Putricide 25 or LK 25 Hard yet. While some fights are more difficult because of positioning thats not the biggest reason. 1. You have to get 25 people to show up. 2. You have to get 25 people to work together. 3. You have to get 25 people who do their jobs and don't wipe the raid. 9/12 fights in ICC can be wiped by 1 single raider making a mistake or not doing their job. To have a successful 25 man raid you need to have more skilled people making less mistakes then doing a 10 man. While raid leaders help with some of that, its still up to each raider to not screw up, and still do their jobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-57028256092364126702010-06-17T13:36:47.429-05:002010-06-17T13:36:47.429-05:00Ok, yes, in 25 mans there is a greater risk of a p...Ok, yes, in 25 mans there is a greater risk of a player not showing up, just due to sheer numbers. However, there is also a greater margin of error in 25 mans, just due to sheer numbers. I'm not saying at all that 25 mans are easier, they are, 90% of the time, more difficult. But, there is more room for people to mess up. <br /><br />Furthermore, adding extra rewards to 25 mans doesn't really add to the enjoyment of the game for anyone. For people like you, who enjoy 25 mans, you have to deal with people who don't really like 25 man raids but are only showing up for whatever increased reward there is. For people like me, who legitimately enjoy 10 mans more, you feel obligated to do the 25 mans so you can have the best gear and perform to the best of your ability. It's not a cycle that is pleasant for anyone involved.Mattrickhoffmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-67435837373954155882010-06-17T11:43:29.583-05:002010-06-17T11:43:29.583-05:00@Superku
Who said 10mans were more fun for the or...@Superku<br /><br />Who said 10mans were more fun for the organizers or the raiders? <a href="http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2010/04/10mans-are-not-fun.html" rel="nofollow">In fact I've specifically said otherwise.</a><br /><br />What I've said is that 10mans are easier to organize and it will be much easier to attract people to 10man raiding then it is to 25man raiding if all things are equal. This could result in the slow but eventual death of 25man raids because people will choose the path of least resistance. People like me who prefer 25man raids may eventually be forced to raid 10mans because raiding 10mans is better then not raiding at all.<br /><br />As far as 40mans go, I can not miss them because I never experanced them. I started playing wow right before TBC was released. However, a quick look at the official forums will show you that there are people out there who miss them since a blue has to comment every few months that "no, they do not intend to bring the 40man raid size back."Graylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-18440583914529377832010-06-17T11:33:38.251-05:002010-06-17T11:33:38.251-05:00@Mattrickhoffman
I disagree.
For clarities sake...@Mattrickhoffman<br /><br />I disagree. <br /><br />For clarities sake when I talk about organizational difficulty I am largely talking about recruitment and raid attendance. I am sure it is a little more difficult to explain a strat or make healing assignments to 25people rather then 10, but I doubt the difference is huge. <br /><br />There are big differences though when it comes to staffing a raid. I agree that the job of recruiting largely falls to officers, but that is only one aspect of the issue. The officer may extend the offer, but the player chooses to weither to accept it or not. Existing members choose weither to stay in a guild or not. When someone does not show up and you can only raid with 24 people that affects all 24 raidiers not just the officers.<br /><br />Look at it this way. By joining a 25man raid guild you are accepting a higher level of risk due to the greater organizational requirements. Since it is more difficult to get 25 people togeather rather then 10 your raids are more likely to be cancelled so there is more risk.<br /><br />If finance teaches us anything, its that with greater risk there should be greater reward, and that risk does not only impact the officers.<br /><br />@Ohken<br /><br />I doubt it. I would be interested to see the people still farming emblems. My guess is that they either don't raid much, feel the need for multiple offsets, or turn them into gold. Most of the players I know haven't need an emblem since February.Graylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928540421337175942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-28442846884546726712010-06-17T11:07:25.590-05:002010-06-17T11:07:25.590-05:00If 10 man raids are more fun for those organizing,...If 10 man raids are more fun for those organizing, and more fun for those raiding, why should 25 man raiding be artificially propped up by better gear just to be kept alive? <br /><br />Do you miss 40 man raids?Superkunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-20305809986074812002010-06-17T10:54:19.565-05:002010-06-17T10:54:19.565-05:00Moonly - according to their original designs for r...Moonly - according to their original designs for reforging, it was going to allow you to just reforge one stat per item, and you'd only be able to reduce that stat once.lissannahttp://www.restokin.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-9982076970420058202010-06-17T10:05:12.538-05:002010-06-17T10:05:12.538-05:00I have no issue with saying that 25-mans are harde...I have no issue with saying that 25-mans are harder to organize than 10 mans. That is completely true. What I have issue with is that it's really only an increase in difficulty for a few people. The raid leaders are really the only people that feel the added stress there. Sure, there are more people to position yourself around for encounters that demand you keep a certain distance between players, but raids these days are designed to fit 25 people so that's not really that big an issue. Using the increased organizational requirements as an argument for better rewards is a pretty shaky argument. Unless there's some way to just reward the raid leaders, I have to disagree.Mattrickhoffmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-66385724406302271142010-06-17T01:05:02.492-05:002010-06-17T01:05:02.492-05:00If reforging is as GC said, then you can convert f...If reforging is as GC said, then you can convert for example 100 crit into 50 crit and 50 haste. If they keep it that way point for point then this opens a lot of doors. We all know that stats are not the same point for point. So taking an item with plenty of a poor stat and reforging will improve the item a lot. If for example haste is much better than crit in cata, then imagine the benefit. This will also help us manage those soft and hard caps much more easily getting much more out of gear without any penalty. Just one question I hope they answer. How many times can you reforge an item? Can you reforge a stat more than once?<br /><br />MoonlytAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-52895691297220955332010-06-16T18:57:36.468-05:002010-06-16T18:57:36.468-05:00Thanks for all the thoughts! One thing, though. Y...Thanks for all the thoughts! One thing, though. You say badges are "only" interesting for the first fre months of a patch?<br /><br />That's still quite a lot. Frost emblems have been available for months, but I still see lots of people trudging through daily randoms just to get two measly emblems.<br /><br />Emblems might just be enough to keep 25s alive.<br /><br />-OhkenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-20625864147301482582010-06-16T17:57:31.982-05:002010-06-16T17:57:31.982-05:00The raid organization between 10- and 25-man's...The raid organization between 10- and 25-man's has been a huge topic of discussion over at EJ recently. I won't try to repeat it all here, but there are a lot of very live concerns for 25-man raiders.<br /><br />I myself am not happy with the announced changes, from the perspective of someone who's almost exclusively interest in 25-man changes. No matter what, they don't benefit me in any way, although it's still unclear just how bad they will be.<br /><br />--<br /><br />It's nice to get a confirm on Spirit being secondary. Not surprising, since it's merely a regen stat for healers anyway, and it's been treated as a secondary stat already in Cataclysm (e.g. not affected by Mark of the Wild).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722476612538640230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-6557835458196241442010-06-16T17:09:44.522-05:002010-06-16T17:09:44.522-05:00We got an answer from GC about spirit on gear. He ...We got an answer from GC about spirit on gear. He says we should be able to reforge items to get spirit off the gear.lissannahttp://www.restokin.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-77818216089378563502010-06-16T12:03:28.999-05:002010-06-16T12:03:28.999-05:00I remember GC writing that when you reforge, you&#...I remember GC writing that when you reforge, you'll lose a bit of itemization... e.g. in your example 100 crit rating would turn in to 50 crit rating and 40 haste.<br /><br />The argument was, they want the "best" items for you to be actual drops.. but if an item that's not super well itemized for you drops, you can reforge it and get some use out of it.<br /><br />Basically, as I read it, reforging turns a poorly itemized item into a decently itemized item, but it should never turn a decently itemized item into a best in slot.<br /><br />I think the goal is to reduce sharding and to make it easier for Blizzard to give every spec items they can put to good use.Duskstormnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3232240169123589462.post-27243972373211650162010-06-16T11:24:33.551-05:002010-06-16T11:24:33.551-05:00You're taking some flak for the question from ...You're taking some flak for the question from people who don't know the answer.<br /><br />Try wording it in a way they understand..."if the spr on leather gear means taking it puts me at a greater disadvantage than accepting the penalty for wearing cloth dps gear then I'll be back in your raid stealing your cloth RAWR!!" ;) <br />(or not as it'll wind them up but it's a possibility given we don't yet know how much of a drawback dropping down an armour value will be)<br /><br />Hoping you get a Blue answer to clarify. <br />The argument "spirit has always been primary so it always will be" is very much an assumptionThornnoreply@blogger.com