Monday, July 25, 2011

Lunar Shower Symmetry

Sorry guys, I was on vacation the last week and didn't have anything prepared to post while I was gone. Plus my internet availability was horrible so I wasn't able to respond to the one bit of moonkin news that did happen. Anyway here is a bit of a catch up.

Lunar Shower Redux:

I'm sure everyone has seen this by now, but if you haven't:
Moonfire will now generate Lunar Energy when crossing from Solar to Lunar on the Eclipse bar. (src)
I know some of you have been a little surprised by the lack of talk regarding this hotfix. After all it is an issue that moonkin have been complaining about since the early days of the 4.2 PTR. I'm not all that surprised that the community has been relatively quite about this hotfix. I think almost every moonkin will be happy with this update. However, it doesn't do a whole lot to change how we value the talent.

In a strange way patch 4.2 showed us how poor a talent Lunar Shower has been all along. Prior to the latest patch we always picked it up because there was no reason not to. The other options we had were fairly poor, and it did provide a nice utility. Once Blizzard added a downside to picking up the talent, we had to reevaluate it's benefits and the truth became clear. The main thing people were using Lunar Shower for was to delay Eclipse transitions. Since that was being removed as a possibility in 4.2 then Lunar Shower didn't provide a whole lot of value.

For example, lets take a look at the Firelands bosses.

Shannox: On normal mode it's a multi-dot fight and therefore bad for Lunar Shower. On heroic mode it's a single target fight, which means LS isn't a liability, but Shannox doesn't necessarily have a ton of movement either. In short, it doesn't hurt to have it on heroic mode, but the benefit it provides isn't huge either.

Rhyolith: This is a multi-dot fight in heroic mode which makes LS a liability, but there is quite a bit of movement as well.

Beth'tilac: As a moonkin, I've been used primarily as add control. Therefore, I want to get in solar and stay in solar. I haven't attempted this fight in heroic mode yet, so I don't know if it changes, but I can't see LS being a big help here.

Alysrazor: Having one feather allows you to cast while moving, completely removing any benefit of having Lunar Shower.

Baleroc: It's a single target fight but there is no real movement involved. Lunar Shower isn't a liability, but it doesn't help either.

Staghelm: There is some movement, but there is also some multi-dotting. Once a gain there is no big reason to have Lunar Shower.

Ragnaros: This is a big fight with a lot of movement, but I'm not sold on using Lunar Shower for it. For a lot of the big Movement phases I'm putting down Mushrooms while I move because I either need their AoE damage, or I need their slows. There aren't a ton of multi-dotting options in the fight, but I also don't see a lot of time where I will be spamming Moonfire either.

When I look at these fights, I see several where LS is a liability, and a few where it shouldn't have any impact at all. In the other fights where it could have an impact there are other limiting factors, and when I've looked at log data, I just don't see that much potential for DPS gain. In short, even with symmetrical power generation, Lunar Shower doesn't provide a while lot of DPS potently or utility. So, while the change is welcome, it doesn't fix all of the talents problems.

Gear List and Stat Weights:

Several people have sent me emails talking about the gear lists and the weights I use to rank the items. First of all thanks for everyone then sent in a correction or addition. I knew about most of them, but some times it takes a while to get things changed. I apologize the for the delay and appreciate your patience. That said it should be completely up-to-date and with all the locations included as of now. If you do find a mistake please let me know.

I also got a couple of emails disagreeing with how I've ranked the items in the list. I won't address any of them specifically, but would like to make a general comment. Prior to Cataclysm the ranking was very straight forward, but reforging changed all that. Now there are a lot ways that all of the items on the list could be reforged to change the value and where they rank on the list. However, I have to pick one way and live with it. I don't have the technical know-how to create list that you could sort yourself, adjust the weights or apply your own reforging strategies. However, WoWhead has some good tools if you would like to play around with that sort of thing.

Second, I agree that the high value of hit over inflates items with spirit and hit rating on it, and it skews the list in a way I don't like. However, I don't think Hit Capping is such a no brainer that I can just ignore it from the ranking as of yet.

Molten Front Vendors:

Several people have asked which Molten Front vendors they should unlock first once they get enough Marks of the World Tree. To be honest this isn't a big concern for me since the rewards they provide shouldn't really matter for Progression raiders, but I realize that some of my readers are alts and very casual raiders.

Which one you unlock first really depends on what you need.

Damek Bloombeard - Additional Armaments - Has the best overall item in the Fireplume Girdle, but he has only one item.

Ayla Shadowstorm - Filling the Moonwell - Has three items a moonkin can use, but that doesn't mean that you want to use any or all of them. The Relic can be replaced with Valor Points. There are plenty of ways to get good trinkets, and you only need an off hand if you are using a one handed weapon.

Varlan Highbough - Calling the Ancients - Has only a Crit/Mastery ring, and is likely the last vendor you would want to activate.


Anonymous said...

So looking at your gear-list for MOONKINS you are tellings us that MOONKIN-T12 is so shit that RESTO-T12 rates higher and we should wear REASTO-T12??????????????????????

Graylo said...


"7. Resto Tier Gear: I have include the Resto Tier gear in the list since Spirit now converts to Spell Hit for Moonkin. However, it will not count towards you Set bonuses. Since Spell Hit is a highly valued stat many of the resto items are ranked higher then the Moonkin Tier. The other cause of this is that the set bonuses are not included in the valuation. Feel free to use a resto tier item, but realize you should use at most one."

If you're not going to read what is posted in the guide, feel free not to comment either.

The reasons resto items are ranked higher on the list then is obvious to anyone who took the time to see how the list was built.

Moondrops said...

Hi Graylo,

Thanks for the new post, I enjoy reading your blog and look for an update everyday :). Thank you for taking the time to update the gear list as well!

I just have one question this time based on what you said here:

"For a lot of the big Movement phases I'm putting down Mushrooms while I move because I either need their AoE damage, or I need their slow"

I'm just wondering what you used the shroom slow for on Ragnaros since I don't think they slowed for the Sons of Flame for me at least.. or am I missing something?

Tj said...

Hey Gray,

I had sent you an e-mail a little while ago, but it seems you where on vacation so it might have gotten lost.

From what I've read about the Tier 4 piece is not that exiting. Since there are a couple of fairly easy items to get early on, would it be better to use 3 piece to hit the DI/NG breakpoint of 2639? Granted, I am talking early heroic kills (Shannox/Beth/Ryo), but that BP is fairly easy to attain (was using the HM helm from Beth and Flickering Shoulders Feverflare from Shannox). Haven't finished messing around with the gear sets but it would seem to use either the tier shoulders or the tier would be a fairly large hit in Int (I can't figure a way to hit 2639 haste with HM Beth helm and 378 Tier shoulders, but using 378 tier helm and 391 Feverflare it is possible).

Using 391 Beth helm AND 391 Feverflare is a difference of about 100 int. Would that be a large enough difference to use both those piece over previous mentioned setups?

Anonymous said...

Fungal growth doesn't slow the sons of scion in my experience. I do, however, put down three shrooms and pop them when a son spawns though for extra burst.

Kelvin Zevallos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kelvin Zevallos said...

When it comes to LS, the movement of the Eclipse bar occurs, according to Blizzard's design, because LS makes MF's Direct damage hit almost like 3/4 a nuke for being instant, altough the 1 sec GCD makes it have comething like a cast time in the practice.

Since that effect that makes MF a nuke occurs on LS, why not make the MF much more expensive in mana with each LS stack?

- retyped for the typos -

Randomsmo said...

I do two things to "normalize" gear when I'm looking at and to somewhat negate the problems reforging cause:

1) I rate hit/spirit the same as mastery. In general, you will always get 17% hit somehow. The decision on which pieces of gear get you that is kind of an afterthought. Therefore it makes the most sense to me to rate hit/spirit/mastery all the same, as that's generally how it will get reforged.

2) Rate everything as reforging for maximum haste. This would drop some items (The spirit trinket is the big one, for example).

I feel this gives a very realistic and comparable item value. It takes into account how we will reforge in 99% of situations and has relatively few downsides. It's not like hit capping is hard in t12 gear.


Anonymous said...

'Damek Bloombeard - Additional Armaments - Has the best overall item in the Fireplume Girdle, but he has only one item.'

I think this is wrong. This belt will be replace by the AoH rep belt which is BIS for sometime. Add that you get it by clear trash to shannox a few times...
The trinket from the moonwell is the best from the daily vendors imo. It is something you also get just by doing dailies AND its replacement cost Valor, which we'll be saving for 3 tier pieces in most cases

Anonymous said...

your gear list allways is h/ or the best out there i would like to see the lower end gear for ppl who cant get the higher gear

Xa said...

At the latest anon, there is a gear guide for lower levels as well.
Check the links 4.0 and 4.1 guides in the end of his current gear guide.