Sunday, April 25, 2010

Fun w/ SimulationCraft: Moonkin Trinkets

The Question: What are the best Trinkets for Moonkin?

This is a fairly common question I see asked around the internet. Unfortunately most trinkets behave in unusual ways that make them difficult to evaluate using simple math and spreadsheets. On top of that the typically provide a large quantity of a single stat and therefore can sckew the results of a typical valueation.

So, what's the answer? Throw it in SimulationCraft and see what it says.

My Theory:

Honestly , I don't have much of a theory on this one. I've made several statements about the valuation of trinkets over the past few months and they seem to change with each statement. You may remember back to my first ICC gear list I said the two Reign Trinkets would remain BiS. Well I am now sure that I was wrong then.

I was wrong because I didn't take into account the amount of Spell Power I would be picking up by upgrading to T10 level gear. That dramatically helps Crit and Haste but has little impact on the proc value of either Reign trinket. Don't get me wrong. Both Reign trinkets are still very good trinkets in ICC, but I think the ICC trinkets are giving them a little more competetion then I first expected.

What SimulationCraft Says:

As usual, I used myself as the example. First, I assumed two base level trinkets: [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] and the normal [Reign of the Unliving]. I realize that not everyone has had luck gaining these trinkets, but Sarth and ToC are very pug able. Therefore I don't think they are out of the realm of possibility to be concidered baseline trinkets.

After I established a base level of DPS I started to exchange the IotDS for the DPS trinkets available from ICC10 and ICC25. In the table below are all the DPS values I got from SimulationCraft for each trinket.


As you can see the Heroic 25man trinkets all did very well for me. Even the Heroic version of Reign of the Unliving was comparable to Heroic DFO and Heroic PotNL. I am a little surprised with how low both Spyglass trinkets were. I thought the heroic version would at least be a little higher upPlease, do not take this as a definitive list of which trinkets are better then the others. If I ran this in a month with different gear it might be different. I highly suggest that you try running theses through SimulationCraft for your own toon.

Do It Yourself:If you don't have it already, you can download SimulationCraft from here.

After you have it downloaded you want to make sure it is set up correctly for you to import your toon, and assume all of the correct buffs. Click the Options tab at the top. You should see several more tabs appear below it. Click the Global's tab and make sure it is selecting the lates patch and make sure that the Armory region is set to your region. Then, if you are with the Alliance, go to the Buff tab and make sure Heroic Presence is checked.

From here it is fairly easy import your toon. Go to the Import tab and search for your toon on the armory and hit the import button. You can also import your toon from WoWhead or Rawr if you use either of them. After you click the Import button it will populate the Simulate tab.

Here is where it gets manual. In the middle of the import your gear will be listed. Towards the bottom of your gear there will be two lines for Trinket1 and Trinket two. These are the lines you want to replace to evaluate new trinkets. Here are the lines for the trinkets I used in the post:
trinket1=illustration_of_the_dragon_soul,equip=onspellcast_20sp_10stack_10dur
trinket1=muradins_spyglass,stats=152crit,equip=onspelldamage_20sp_10stack_10dur
trinket1=muradins_spyglass,stats=131crit,equip=onspelldamage_18sp_10stack_10dur
trinket1=phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich,stats=172crit,equip=onspelltickdamage_1032sp_30%_20dur_90cd
trinket1=phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich,stats=152crit,equip=onspelltickdamage_918sp_30%_20dur_90cd
trinket1=reign_of_the_unliving,stats=168sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_2117fire_3stack_2.0cd
trinket2=reign_of_the_unliving,stats=150sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_1882fire_3stack_2.0cd
trinket1=dislodged_foreign_object,stats=170haste,equip=onspellcast_121sp_10stack_10%_20dur_45cd_2tick
trinket1=dislodged_foreign_object,stats=155haste,equip=onspellcast_105sp_10stack_10%_20dur_45cd_2tick


If you are familure with WoWhead or Rawr it is much easier to change the trinkets with those tools and reimport the file.

22 comments:

Nightedahs said...

for me the best trinkets are

Phylactery of the Nameless Lich (H)
Phylactery of the Nameless Lich
Reign of the Unliving (H)
Disloged Foreign Object (H)
Reign of the Unliving
Disloged Foreign Object

I really wonder why the object is so high in your list...

greetings
Nightedahs @Khaz'Goroth(EU)

Tsuki said...

Yeah, I don't understand either. Given that a) past the soft haste cap crit > haste per point, b) the Phylactery's proc is stronger for giving 1k+ SP upfront and not gradually and c) the internal cooldown seems to be the same, PNL should be ahead in any calculation for ToC levels of gear and beyond.

Maybe it has to do with it proccing from DoTs, hence lowering the uptime.

Mind shedding some light here, Graylo?

Voink said...

I have yet to see reign drop in any of my ToC 25s, so I've stopped trying - seen the DFO 2 out of 3 times in 25 man ICC and I'm very high on my guild's DKP charts so my odds of getting it are very good if it drops again.

Andreas said...

Once you're past both the haste and critt cap, as most of us with mostly icc10/25 gear would be, haste is again stronger then critt.
and the ICD for DFO is only half of that of the PNL, as is the effective (avrage) sp for the duration.
The DFO does give slightly more haste then the PNL gives critt.

That alll taken intoaccount makes sence to me.

Simmilar SP from the proccs.
Haste amount on DFO > critt amount on PNL
Haste > Critt at high lvl gear. (past both caps)

So under those cistcumstances:
DFO > PNL

Nightedahs said...

I agree that post both softcaps haste is stronger than crit but only until a certain point. I have 660 haste and about 1060 crit without idol. Equipping DFO would put me over 800 haste what is way to much. Wrath and the DoTs are so fast that I even get problems with spellqueing which causes DPS loss again. Having more crit insteas pushes Reign of Unliving and keeps Nature's Grace by 90% uptime. Also Starfall takes more profit out of crit and in a Lichking fight where it does about 20% of my total damage (Vile Spirits) this must be considered.

greetings
Nightedahs @Khaz'Goroth(EU)

Qieth said...

Allow me to try some stupid math here: (the math I'm capable off and how I approach it)

Reign has 150 spell power. The lowest average spell power gain from DFO (if it takes some 25 seconds to process after the ICD is up) wS calculated to 165 (and seems unrealistic - it doesn't take that long). For the sake of the argument let's keep it at that. That gives DFO a lead on Reign.

The process on Reign drops a lot on value over 400 haste. With 2 second starfires we get a pillar every 6 seconds. With 1.9 sec starfires we get a pillar every 11.4 seconds. That puts the proc at half it's value once we get more haste (and we do). 155 haste on DFO normal is ~215 Dps on it's own (haste value taken from WC). Add the avg spell power and DFO does some 540 DPS.

The SP from Reign normal is about 290 DPS (again, value taken fr WC). That means that a pillars coming from Reign - which is severely crippled half the time - has to account got 250 DPS to ce out even with DFO.

Does anyone follow my logic? Will try and run Simcraft tomorrow, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

Lakini said...

I'd win the lottery before I'd see either baseline trinket, thanks for the info.

Qieth said...

Alright, so what I have done here is to plot my own numbers into Wrath Calcs. WC does not have an option to take DFO into account, so I have had to use the average numbers posted on WoWhead for DFO. These numbers estimate the average SP gain with DFO depending on how long it takes to proc the trinket after the iCD is up:

580 Uptime SP * ( 20 sec uptime/50 sec till proc)=232 SP
580 Uptime SP * ( 20 sec uptime/60 sec till proc)=193 SP
580 Uptime SP * ( 20 sec uptime/70 sec till proc)=165 SP

Lets go by 60 seconds - that gives you a stunning 15 seconds to proc DFO after the iCD is up, and even that feels a bit off. Average spell power is then 193, which I add to my spell power value in WC. This puts my DPS, according to WC, at 11.573 DPS.

Now, removing the SP and haste I gain from DFO, and adding SP and proc from Reign (WC can do this), I run the numbers again and get 11.615 DPS.

This is obviously a bit.. alarming or annoying if you will. But remember that I gave the trinket 15 seconds to proc after the iCD is up. If it takes a mere 5 seconds (10% procrate, 5 seconds, probably a 30-50% chance that it has procced), my DPS with DFO goes up to 11.652.

So it really matters a little bit how long time it takes you to proc DFO again after the iCD is up. If it takes you 15 seconds, your DPS will be slightly lower than Reign. If it takes you 5 seconds, you will be slightly higher than Reign.

The biggest turn point, however, is the argument that you can use DFO smartly. You will gain a lot more from DFO's spell power if you use your abilities wisely - starfall when DFO is halfway done will do a lot more damage than with the constant DPS from Reign.

Still, im suprised that they are so close. On one hand, Reign proc becomes very bad for starfires as soon as we have 1,9 second starfires. It suddenly takes us 11,4 seconds to fire a flame rather than 6 seconds if we had 2 second starfires. But, on the other hand, as we get more crit, I suppose wrath will crit more often and we will most likely get a mote each 2-3 seconds when spamming wrath.

Curriously enough, if I pull myself into SimCraft, i get 10.082 DPS with my current armory items, and if I switch DFO to Reign, it gives me 10.081 DPS. Now aint that something? :P

Nightedahs said...

"The process on Reign drops a lot on value over 400 haste. With 2 second starfires we get a pillar every 6 seconds. With 1.9 sec starfires we get a pillar every 11.4 seconds. That puts the proc at half it's value once we get more haste (and we do)."

You are wrong with that, because you forget Wrath. I must not calculate with Starfire only because every critical strike counts. Wrath, Moonfire, Starfall, even Hurricane.
So you get your counts way more often.

greetings
Nightedahs @Khaz'Goroth(EU)

Draugir said...

It's been well documented that the ICD on both Phylactery trinkets is 100 seconds, not 90.

Duskstorm said...

I don't consider IotDS or RotU "base" trinkets. It's much easier to get your hands on Muradin's spyglass, even if you personally have had bad luck.

This is all based on my server, but

IotDS
1. You'll only see real pugs for this when it's the weekly. Other than that, either find a bunch of friends and start one or you're SoL.

2. When the IotDS DOES drop, you're going to roll against people. That's a big reason why they're there! I've tried to go after it, but when I did, I faced off against 10 casters every time. And no one does MS/OS rolls for Sarth, so you're often competing against alt specs.

RotU:

1. There are pugs for ToC, but many, dare I say most, fail. The best players are bringing their alts, and many, many people are either clueless or watching television expecting to get carried.

2. See #2 above. People are somewhat better about doing MS/OS rolls, though. Still, when it does drop, there's tons of competition.

I've been fortunate enough to actually win the spyglass, so that other trinket slot is really something I tend to change out situationally.

Sometimes I use the nevermelting ice crystal. Yes, on paper, it sucks, but there's a use for it. On putricide, I save the on-use for p3 to quickly "guarantee" that I proc lunar eclipse right when heroism/bloodlust gets called out. It's basically a free near-instant eclipse proc and it does have situational use.

On fights where I often need to off-heal, I'll go with the sliver of pure ice. I don't like using mana pots (I prefer haste pots for damage), and it's nice to get a bit of mana back if I have to switch out to caster form.

In reality, though, if I knew of a consistent group running toc25, I'd probably grind the RotU. I've never felt great about my 2nd trinket :(

I bet the new ruby sanctum boss will throw me a bone, though.

Duskstorm said...

I don't consider IotDS or RotU "base" trinkets. It's much easier to get your hands on Muradin's spyglass, even if you personally have had bad luck.

This is all based on my server, but

IotDS
1. You'll only see real pugs for this when it's the weekly. Other than that, either find a bunch of friends and start one or you're SoL.

2. When the IotDS DOES drop, you're going to roll against people. That's a big reason why they're there! I've tried to go after it, but when I did, I faced off against 10 casters every time. And no one does MS/OS rolls for Sarth, so you're often competing against alt specs.

RotU:

1. There are pugs for ToC, but many, dare I say most, fail. The best players are bringing their alts, and many, many people are either clueless or watching television expecting to get carried.

2. See #2 above. People are somewhat better about doing MS/OS rolls, though. Still, when it does drop, there's tons of competition.

I've been fortunate enough to actually win the spyglass, so that other trinket slot is really something I tend to change out situationally.

Sometimes I use the nevermelting ice crystal. Yes, on paper, it sucks, but there's a use for it. On putricide, I save the on-use for p3 to quickly "guarantee" that I proc lunar eclipse right when heroism/bloodlust gets called out. It's basically a free near-instant eclipse proc and it does have situational use.

On fights where I often need to off-heal, I'll go with the sliver of pure ice. I don't like using mana pots (I prefer haste pots for damage), and it's nice to get a bit of mana back if I have to switch out to caster form.

In reality, though, if I knew of a consistent group running toc25, I'd probably grind the RotU. I've never felt great about my 2nd trinket :(

I bet the new ruby sanctum boss will throw me a bone, though.

Graylo said...

@Tsuki

As I said in the post, how you value trinkets depends significantly on what hear you have. Haste is a much more volitle stat then crit. If you have high spell power and low haste, then haste will have significant value. The more haste you have the less valueable it is.

That is why DFO is good for a lot of people. They've held down their haste and favored Crit.

@Duskstorm

As I said in the post I realized that not everyone has been lucky enough to get either of those trinkets. However, I had to use something for the post. If you want to use something else, then feel free to do so.

That said, I think you easily 10man sarth 0d at this point. You might even be able to 5man it. As for Reign, ToC should be fine with alts as well.

Duskstorm said...

@Graylo

I don't think 10 man drops Illustration when you kill with 2d or 3d up. Did that change at some point?

All I'm saying about reign is that, on MY server, ToC25 (normal) is not something that is worth pugging. The vast majority of the ones I've been in are total fail, and the ones that aren't often still can't get anub down.

Even if you're lucky and you get Anub down AND it drops, you've got to compete with several people, making this thing not worth farming for if there are no other upgrades for you in toc25.

Just my opinion, but I can't justify the time it would take to farm toc25 every week for it (since I'm on a server where it's NOT a foregone conclusion that I can join a pug that will clear it in one hour).

But you're right, you have to choose a base to start from, and I agree that these trinkets are pretty much available to anyone. I'm just saying that on MY server, I'd consider muradin's spyglass more accessible than the RotU.

Graylo said...

@Duskstorm

IotDS has always been a normal drop from Sarth+0.

http://www.wowhead.com/zone=4493

Graylo said...

What I mean was that 25man sarth is so easy that you could probably 10man it at this point without the drakes up. You may even be able to 5 man it. I wasn't suggesting that IotDS was a 10man drop.

Anonymous said...

I know for a fact that Sarth+0 can be 7 maned and that was early 3.3.3 if not late trail

Duskstorm said...

@graylo Ah, misunderstood you. That's a good idea, nice way to get a way better trinket.

I'll see if my guildies want to run it with me.

Anonymous said...

Hey Graylo,

i think you made a little mistake. Phylactery of the Nameless Lich procs for 1074 Spellpower and Phylactery of the Nameless Lich (H) for 1207.

918 and 1032 are the old nonbuffed procs.

Greetz Eggi

Anonymous said...

phylactery ICD = 100sec instead of 90sec as listed. I believe that's been confirmed for a month or so now from people who have it and posted. (i do not have so i can't personally confirm)

Reign - i don't see many people talking about it scaling with the ICC buff as well as scaling with crit. I've gotten 65% crit proc rate several times, i'm not sure if it's luck or if it somehow uses crit buff from talents-to-spells. Conjecture on my part but anyway, it crits, and we have mucho crito now.

Anonymous said...

forgot to add this

personally, i like the H spyglass over phylactery due to having constant spell buff and control over it, not losing time on buff to movement or mechanic, not losing time on buff to fight length. 100ICD is quite a bit of time. It should be 30sec length.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why people keep talking about too much haste past both crit and haste cap?

In WrathCalcs, Rawr, and now SimCraft the more haste I get the more it seems to value it.

Currently sitting at 1000 haste with 1070 crit. Playing with stats is easiest in WrathCalcs and not until I get way past 1200 haste does it even come down to meet crit in value.

Now I would rather have more crit personally for that other 50% of the time and especially for Starfall, but the math doesn't lean that way from what I've seen.