Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Rant: Ninja Gquitters are Cowards

We are in difficult times. ICC and the last major content patch of WotLK has been released. The Cataclysm alpha is currently being tested and I wouldn't be surprised if the Beta was made available within a few weeks. On top of all that summer is fast approaching and we all know that plays havoc on raid availability. Times are hard for raiders and raiding guilds.

In times like these guild rosters are heavily influx. Some guilds fall apart. Others need to recruit heavily to fill spots. It is not unexpected for raiders to look for greener pastures in this situation. In fact, all three of my guild moves occurred during the summer, so I understand the situation very well. That said there is a right way to make a change and a wrong way, and in my opinion ninja quitters are a bunch of cowards.

It's Not about Loyalty:

At this point many bloggers would go on a rant about guild loyalty and such. I won't. I think the concept of guild loyalty is overblown quite often and in general I think guild members owe very little to their guilds in the long run. No one is paying my 15 dollars for me, and no one can tell me went to play, what to play, or who to play with.

I know it sucks when a valued guild member leaves the guild or goes casual. I've had quite a lot of experience with it lately in fact. Not only have many of our veteran raiders gone casual, but we have also lost a couple of leaders who decided to quit the game or go casual. I don't begrudge them their rights to do so. I just think here is, or at least should be, an etiquette for making this transition.

The Etiquette of Leaving:

Give Notice: Though it may feel like it at times WoW is not a job. I am not suggesting that you give your guild 2 weeks notice though it would be nice. However, every guild does deserve some notice even if it is only a couple of minutes. Take for example the inspiration for this post. Last night two of our raiders didn't show up for raid. We waited a little bit but started without them in hopes that they would show up soon. However, after about an hour someone noticed that neither of them were on the guild roster any longer. They had ninja quit without saying anything on the forums or cancelling their raid sign up. As a result we raided short most of the night.

Some of you may be thinking "what's the big deal?" If we had the people available to replace them we would have. Since we didn't, it probably wouldn't have mattered if they and told us a head of time. I disagree.

First off, at the very least it wastes the guilds time. We used valuable raid time wondering where they were and trying to replace them. Second, who knows what could have been done in a days time. I know we are getting apps to the guild still. Even with very little time a couple of those could be approved and included in raid. Third, we have several member ranked guildies that are available for raid on occasion and are willing to fill in when necessary if they can. By ninja quitting you don't allow any of these things to happen and as a result waste the time of 24 other people.

Be Considerate: As said before I think guildies owe their guilds very little, and in general I don't think they owe anything for the gear they receive. If your their for the fight, you earned it just like everyone else. However, some guild assign specific jobs to guildies like being the guild crafter. These people are given preference for patterns and mats. With in reason, I think these people should repay the guild for some of the things they receive. Certainly return any mats you are given, and if possible provide compensation for the patterns you receive, especially if you are quitting the game and giving away all of your gold.


I know I am drawing a fine line here and some of you may not see the difference. I will admit that some of my comments are coming from the bitterness I feel over wasted raid time last night. To some extent I am probably blowing this out of proportion. However, just because I am angry and possibly a little irrational doesn't mean I'm completely wrong. If you are thinking of making a guild change I wish you good luck, just be considerate in how you leave.

Yes, we are Recruiting:

If you hadn't guessed my guild is recruiting again. We have spots for a Feral Druid, almost any Ranged DPS (included a moonkin, damn you Murmurs), and hybrid healers. If you're looking for a focus guild that gets a lot done in just 9 hours a week, the LoE may be the place for you. You can find more info here.


Tsuki said...

I can only imagine the stress of being a moonkin in your guild. It's almost like being Kungen's OT :P

On topic: it's hard to be considerate when you're leaving a guild. It's like ending a relationship, it's rarely on good terms. Sometimes your notice would be saying "I'll miss two of you, the rest of the douches and lootwhores can go to hell, bye". Might as well drop a word to an officer via whisper and vanish.

But I understand your frustration, my guild's going through the same thing. Cataclysm beta and summer are just around the corner, it's gonna take a lot for guilds to survive, regardless of size.

Graylo said...


Let me rephrase this. I'm not asking for a group hug. I'm not even asking for an explination. Neither of those things are necessary or would even matter in the long run. I just think people shouldn't leave without giving any notice. Something as simple as "this guild is no longer working out for me, bye" would be fine in my opinion. I just don't want to be left hanging thinkin where did so and so go.

Hardy said...

I think it is just the polite thing to do. Tell an officer or one of the regulars you are leaving. The same applies if you are a regular raider and decide to cut back on your raid times, just tell someone or post in your forums. It's just a game, but it affects the other 9 or 24 ppl raiding with you.

Foofy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Talsh said...

Hear hear, Graylo. The only thing that makes it easier to deal with is that the same thing happens every summer, so on some level, I anticipate it. That still doesn't stop me from being pissed off when people just leave without saying anything.

We've been working on LK hard mode for a while (10-12 weeks or something? We unlocked it a week after it was possible) and we have had probably 50 people see the fight due to what is essentially a revolving door of guild membership. It can definitely be frustrating.

Foofy said...

We just had the same thing happen. A druid we recruited to help heal and dps when needed was handed tokens and gear galore. Then just ups and leaves. No word..nothing. Rumor was she was quitting all of the sudden and deleted her toons. Which came out of no where. Then apparently she transferred off somewhere. I wouldn't be so pissed if she would have said something like she disliked the guild or something, but don't waste my time or other people's time taking you in, gearing you up; only to have you leave a few weeks later.

Artofficial said...

I think guild loyalty is a major problem, because there is none of it. I myself build very strong relationships (some good some bad) with the people in my guild. I felt very strong about my loyalty to my previous guild Paragon of War, in fact I was probably the most loyal and patriotic member. However, this led to my downfall. I don't like flakes (People who don't show up) and I voiced my opinion very strongly to our guild leader to "Fucking man up".

I believe you should have guild loyalty, and that the guild shouldn't discourage new members from joining the inner circle. Many new members of PoW were welcomed by me...after a few jokingly bully comments. Guild loyalty allows for relationships to be built and progression to prosper. We had free enchants for all new gear, materials,etc, etc... From my experience if a player is not having a good time in the guild then they should leave and nobody should care if they left because skill should follow skill. If you sucked that's prolly' why you'd have left PoW, not because of internal issues.

Tyler said...

This is my two week notice that I will not be joining your guild Graylo. =P

In all seriousness, LoE is a really amazing guild, but they do have you and I can't have other people around that might make me look bad. Apples just seemed like they would end up being a better fit for what I currently need - although I am beyond upset that I have lost all of my alts ($55 dollars per toon to transfer is a bit much when I would have to drag 6 level 80 characters along for the ride.)

MonKo said...

I've been a semi-recent offender of being a hard core raider then all of a sudden going casual and/or not logging on the game at all during long periods of time. Let me tell you it doesn't go well, at least in my guild it didn't. I got a lot of backtalk by the officers about me being casual. They'd make fun of stuff I'd do and call me a newb. What's funny is the guy that was doing it the most was the druid class officer who happens to be the feral main tank. So I finally said to hell with it and left the guild after being in it for 3+ years.

Life changes for everyone. For me it changed by having my first child. Plus the game changed in a way where it got so boring doing the same crap every single week.

Now I'm ultra casual. I log in and do my pvp daily, maybe the cooking/fishing daily, and log back out. I'll do VOA and Wintergrasp also but that's it. No heroic dailies because i'm so sick of them. No ICC because I'm sick of that place as well.

Pewpewturkey said...

Hope things get better for you guys. also thanks for all the useful info on your site =)

Berdache said...

Got to agree, there is nothing stopping people being polite.

If you want to avoid confrontation then do a post on the guild forum but I would suggest dont burn bridges, you never know when you will be playing with these people.

But at the very least its decent to cancel any raids you are on, you are just wasting 9/24 other peoples time if you dont.

Qieth said...

I view guilds much like football teams. Players switch around more often than not.

I am not a guild jumper, but I will switch to upgrade myself if need be. I am very social in guilds, and make a lot of friends, so it is tough to decide to switch guilds.

But I play to raid. If something is not living up to the standards I am looking for - raid time, performence, attention etc - then I start looking for something better. Its somewhat the "I expect others to do what I do", so if I'm in a guild that does not focus as much as myself, then I feel like I am wasting time.

Before my current guild, I was in one for six months. I was active as always, and was even made the caster class master. But when people started dropping out, slacking at raids, and the situation couldn't be remedied, I decided to opt for another guild. I find that perfectly reasonable. If I am not enjoying myself when raiding, then why raid?

But I let people know before I leave. I told my old GM that I had started sending out applications (well, one, that was all I needed), and while I didn't share this with the whole guild, the other officers knew.

In terms of items. Imagine if someone gets a DFO and then leaves the guild. Nobody can say that it was not in his right: If this person has enough DKP to be the next in line, then he has worked for that item regardless. It sucks for the guild, sure, but the player has earned the item for his contribution to the raid.

It should all be done correctly, though. Leave on a nice tone, and don't let it come as a suprise - i try to fix things, or at least complain about them to the higher-ups, before I decide to leave. At the moment im raiding 3 nights a week, clearing 11 hardmodes on the first night, playing with friendly people who know their stuff - so I can't complain ;)

Anonymous said...

This particular summer/end of cycle will be especially bad methinks. A LK kill is a nice way to "go out". A lot of players who have been considering quitting have probably held on for that.

This is the real reason for the ICC buff. ;) 20% extra healing and damage means we can raid short the rest of the way.

Graylo said...


Your cool. Don't worry about choosing to go somewhere else. It would have been awesome to have you in the guild, because I like having someone inguild to talk about things with. However, I would be the more established member, and wouldn't have to sit as often if at all. I can understand why you would choose a guild with a greater need. In the end I think that is the big reason why Alleine left.

Anonymous said...

To be honest I agree with what many people are saying about guild loyalty in the comments and I wish it was more prevalent. Unfortunately corporate culture which has crept into many of the guilds out there does not promote loyalty at all.

The main thing in this type of culture is a thought of I'll help you until it is no longer profitable for me. This is why you will see people pop into a guild for a few weeks and gear up quickly then be gone to a guild higher up the food chain with barely a word. Their thought process in this is that your guild is no longer profitable and to reach their goals they used you as a stepping stone and worked their way up the ladder.

Raiding guilds really aren't a social contract for most people as many people will have no social commitment to the other people in the raid. It is more a business deal between 10-25 players and at the end of the night they can either choose to continue the deal if it is profitable for them or they can cancel the deal and head out. As is seen when they cancel the deal they may not say a word about it and just disappear. That is just the nature of this culture that has pervaded into the raid scene and will be continued to be seen as long as raiding guilds are around. I really see no reason to get angry about it in the end.

Maragon said...

"In the end I think that is the big reason why Alleine left."

It's exactly the reason. I've never had anything against you, Graylo, or LoE - but in the end it didn't really matter how good I was, it mattered that you were senior.

In many ways, I still think that most guilds should really only need one good moonkin. Even with our starfall buff, we should be beaten by a myriad of classes on any given fight. While I can put in a good showing and be in the top 8 or so on any given fight, there's no reason to pick up another moonkin to round out your top 15 when you can pick up another rogue or mage to round out your top 5.

I think that the current 3 day transfer system and the tiered raiding structure has really created and perpetuated a "grass is greener" approach to raiding. If you don't like your guild's progress, it would take you an afternoon to hop on the WoW forums, find some guilds to your taste and send them an application. The ease of guild-hopping essentially assures that it will happen, often.

Best of luck to you, Graylo. I still read you often.


Hana said...

All I would ever ask as a guild leader of someone who wants to leave is to just give me notice when the time comes. While my guild is still raiding strong, I'm fearing that sometime in the coming weeks we will lose someone to the point of be crippled, and that will be the end of our WotLK progression, but it'll be an easier pill to swallow if I have some notice and the rest of the guild can prepare.

Duskstorm said...

A lot of people are just too selfish to be bothered by thinking about the impact their decision to not show up makes. You're literally making 9 or 24 other people who have real lives to tend to, that carve out precious time for WoW, wait around for your sorry ninja quitting arse.

Imagine you and some friends agreed to meet up to take a drive out to the brewery for a beer tasting. It's really far away, so you carpool. One guy shows up late, or not at all (only calling you to let you know 30 minutes after he's supposed to arrive). That guy would be a jerk, right?

Same thing in WoW. If you want to quit, give them time to find someone to replace you. It's not hard. But don't treat 9 or 24 other people like their time is worthless.

Neyuna said...

I completely agree and can relate to your post. As a player who has been raiding since Molten Core I've seen hundreds of people come and go, burnout and disappear.

I joined a new guild this spring after spending nearly 3 years in my previous guild. The guild had been crumbling and people leaving for months and I was one of the few holding on, out my own sense of loyalty. Most of us called each other by first name. But I was no longer happy there.

It took weeks to the decision to move on and find the right guild to apply to. I had my goodbye post saved for as soon as I got accepted. I talked to some officers on vent at the same time and gave a short farewell message in game.

I would have liked to give a longer notice but it was emotionally draining for me and I didn't want to deal with any anger or disappointment. I think any notice is better than nothing.

GamingLifer said...

Fucking Myraxa.

Artofficial said...

Sometimes leaving a guild without notice is better for everyone. There are tons of bad guilds that need to disband and the only way to disperse them is to cripple them. On the flip side, bad guilds are very good at grouping crap players together thus creating a fundamental need in WoW, a who to avoid list. It happened with Rated M on Tichondrius and Ruinous on Kil'Jaeden, these are helpful things.

Oh yeah, my vacation RV'ing out West sucks.

Ettin said...

A lot of guilds are going through that lately, I think. The last stretch of an expansion is always the "fun" part.

My guild's been kicked in the balls by ninja gquits a few times in the last few months

1) DPS warrior recruit, a server transfer who was making our server his third (at least). Ninja transferred to Malygos because he got benched, picked up some loot, transferred to Area 52... unfortunately the trail went cold or I'd still be tracking him for fun. All of that happened within about two months.

2) Shaman recruit, apparently had a work schedule change that prevented him from continuing to raid with us, decided to app to another guild instead of saying something. Joined that guild, server transferred without warning a week later.

3) Enhancement shaman, long-time raider with many friends in the guild, joined a more progressed guild with a four-day schedule in the middle of the night without telling anybody. After he was told he could at least have said goodbye he made a post claiming he left because he wanted to play WoW less and promptly stopped talking to anyone.

4) Last week our pally tank suddenly vanished a day before raids. Main and alts don't show up on Armory any more, no warning, nothing. We found out when a friend of mine tried to armory him to copy his gems.

Oh yeah, and the ret pally who respecced to fill in for him got the Shadowmourne he was working on today. Sure hope he doesn't have to tank all the time now.

Gevlon said...

There is a problem with note: often the person doesn't know any better.

If he trades up (join a more progressed guild), he knows. If he goes casual because RL forces him, he knows. But those who leave the guild because social reasons or leaving WoW because it's "no fun", usually don't know beforehand. If you asked him yesterday he'd say "there are problems but we are cool". Today he sits front of the login screen and just say: "I can't take this shit anymore" and press Alt-F4

Cathy said...

Strange how in the game many folks lose their manners.

Even with my daycare kids, when they play I expect courtesy of everyone having a turn "being it" in tag. Don't quit the game when its your turn to find the other hiding kids. Start it at a young age.

I expect courtesy in all areas of life even in the game.