Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Blue Post: Owlkin Frenzy Nerf Explanation

To be honest, I didn't see the Owlkin Frenzy nerf as a big deal because I don't use the talent and most raiding moonkin don't. However, it is a curious change that I didn't understand the reasoning for. Luckily GC graced the forums with his precense and game us an explination.

The nerf to moonkin frenzy was because moonkin kept standing in the fire in order to enhance their dps, which seems like not the kind of gameplay we should be encouraging and makes healers write us nastygrams in all capital letters.

We realize it's a PvP nerf and we're trying to come up with other ways to solve the problem. It may be that the current implementation on Live is the best one after all.

This is why you nerfed Owlkin Frenzy?

I can see how on the surface this can seem overpowered. I would love to get a static 10% damage buff and 100% push back resistance. However, you seem to only be looking at the benefit of the Strategy and not the costs. Lets really look at the merits of this Strategy.

1. For this to work you have to get hit frequently but for a very low amount of damage. If your not hit often enough then the buff won't proc enough. If Frenzy isn't up near constantly all your DPS gains will be lost to spell pushback when the buff is not up. If your taking near constant damage then each tick needs to be fairly insignificant otherwise you would either die or need constant healing.

If we look at the 17 encounters currently available in WotLK there is only that might fit this criteria. The only way this might work is if you stand in the lava during Sarth. Every other damage mechanic I can think of in game is either to infrequent and/or to severe to be withstood.

So your nerfing one of the few PvP talents Moonkin have because you think it might be a little OP on one fight that nobody is going to care about in a couple of months. Sorry, but that sounds a little like using a revolver to kill a fly.

2. If someone is doing this lets not forget that it is a very risky move. Unlucky lava strikes can already kill raiders quickly. Plus voidzones are probably more difficult to see in the lava especially if your swiming. Basically, someone who stands in the Lava is increasing this risk and the dead don't DPS.

3. Sarth is a highly moble fight. Therefore it is unlikely you can stand in the lava constantly and if you do you have to worry about range issues with your healer to keep DPSing.

4. By standing in the fire, you will require healing. We don't have a mechanic like Shadow Priests that automatically heals us as a part of our normal rotation. Therefore we will have to waste a GCD to heal our selves or have a healer waste their GCD and mana on us. So the raid loses DPS because the healers are more stressed and you may lose someone else. If the healers aren't stressed then your preventing them from throwing out a Smite or Moonfire.

So at best a moonkin who stands in the lava to proc Owlkin Frenzy is taking damage for a relatively minor DPS increase.

5. Finally, If this really is a big problem, is this really the best way to fix it? You could just as easily adjust the frequency and severity of the lava damage. Maybe have it tick for triple the amount every three seconds instead of every second?

In conclusion, I agree that the original post was a bit dramatic. Raiding Moonkin are more viable now then they have been in the 2 years I've been playing the game. However, you have to admit that PvP moonkin have been beaten up quite a bit lately with the the changes to Starfall and such. And nerfing ond of the key PvP talents to elimanate such a minor situation in PvE is just overkill.


Nathan said...

He's not talking about standing in fire in a PvE context. He's talking about PvP moonkin standing in the fire in the Ogrimmar arena. In the context of PvP in that arena, the talent is kinda crazy.

Cdin said...


Well that shows you how much I PvP, but I think my point still holds true. Its not a problem with the talent, its a problem with the content.

Is there really a need to have fire's in Ogrimmar Arena that can damage you? If so, why don't we make the fire painful enough that standing it in isn't a good idea.

Nathan said...


I agree, I think the fires are kinda pointless unless they do actual meaningful damage. The problem is if they do any more damage they'll get more "elitest" arena junkies complaining about "RNG" environment damage killing them. Yet, they want to make arenas more interesting. It's a pretty fine line they try to walk, between keeping arenas interesting and keeping them e-sport "fair".

StaggerLee said...

Just a thought.

In a PVE fight, where you can be relatively stationary (or return to the same place after movement), could you make a cooking-fire and stand on it to get the proc?

Anonymous said...

No, because camp fires don't do damage.

Anonymous said...

There isn't a raid I run where I am not taking some type of secondary damage that procs my fury. I don't understand the issue.

Anonymous said...

No one stands in the fire in Orgrimmar Arena Nathan. It does a ridiculous amount of damage. He was definitely talking in terms of PvE.

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