Tuesday, August 4, 2009

Patch 3.2: A few Reminders.

Edit: I added a section about Spec changes.

Now that Patch 3.2 is here I wanted to review and summarize some of the information I've posted previously. Its been a while since this patch first hit the PTR and I'm sure a lot of people don't remember all of the different changes involved. These are the things Moonkin Raiders probably want to pay the most attention too.

Eclipse: The Starfire and Wrath buffs from this talent are now on separate 30-second cooldowns. In addition, it is not possible to have both buffs active simultaneously

This is by far the biggest change in the patch for Moonkin raiding. It has a lot of different affects that you will want to pay attention to.

  1. New Rotation: Gone are the days of Solar vs Lunar. All moonkin should now use what I call a "Twisting" rotation.

    Don't get freaked out that you will now be doing something different then you’re used to. It actually makes the Moonkin rotation easier. Start your rotation as you normally would by applying Fairie Fire and the DoTs. Then pick a nuke and start casting. In most cases it doesn't really matter if you go for Wrath or Starfire first, because they are about the same in value. Once you proc Eclipse, switch spells. Continue with the same nuke until you proc Eclipse again and switch spells. Reapply DoTs and debuffs as needed. This is a little controversial but I reapply DoTs during Eclipse until the last 4 or 5 seconds of the buff.

  2. Stat Valuation: Having a new rotation will change the way we value stats. Here are the new stat valuations I posted a couple of months ago.

    StatNo LagWith Lag11% Haste With Lag
    Hit Rating1.6081.5951.614
    Spell Power111
    Haste Rating0.6780.3890.941
    Crit Rating0.7530.7410.742

    Some people will look at these number and automatically say "haste sucks now." That is not what these number say though. First of all, the third column shows that haste is still a very valuable stat if you’re below the haste cap of 400.

    It's also very important to remember that while haste above the haste cap is not as valuable as Crit it still has value. Starfire is a big part of the new rotation and Nature's Grace will Not be up 100% of the time. Favor Crit over Haste on a point for point basis if you’re above the Haste cap, but don't avoid it. It will still increase you’re DPS.

  3. Addons: Much has been made of addons like Squawk and Awe since WotLK was released 9 months ago. Up until this patch they were pretty much required for a moonkin to push out maximum DPS. Well that is no more, but I would suggest you be careful about dropping them. I plan on keeping Squawk and Awe for now because I want something to remind me which Eclipse I have. It will also let you know when you can proc either Eclipse.
New Idol: [Idol of Lunar Fury] - Each time your Moonfire spell deals periodic damage, you have a chance to gain 200 critical strike rating for 12 sec.

There is a lot of new gear in this patch for obvious reason, but this is the only piece you should care about right away. On the PTR this idol cost 25 Emblems of Triumph. Assuming the price stays the same I suggest you get 25 EoT's as quickly as possible and buy this idol.

It is by far the best idol of all the options available. Early reports from the PTR said that it had a 70% to 90% proc rate with no internal cooldown, and I have not seen any reports to suggest that this has changed. Assuming that this is the case then this idol provides a static 200 increase to Crit Rating since you’re virtually assured a 100% up rate as long as you keep Moonfire up.

Tier 9 Set Bonuses:
  • 2 pieces: Your Moonfire ability now has a chance for its periodic damage to be critical strikes.
A very nice set bonus that many players have been asking for for a while in some form. The early reports from the PTR said that it did not proc Nature's Grace or return Mana while in Moonkin Form, but that is ok. The math I did when it was first announced showed that that this set bonus is worth about a 4% DPS increase while the 4T8 set bonus was worth only 2.5%. This is a definite upgrade.

  • 4 pieces: Increases the damage done by your Starfire and Wrath spells by 4%.
If WoW abilities were people, I promise you that this set bonus would need some serious therapy. This is not a bad set bonus but it is obviously inferior when compared to 2T8 -
Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 15%.

Some players say that they are going to skip 4T9 and use 2T8 until Icecrown is released and we have a new tier of raiding. That is not necessarily the best policy. 2T8 is definitely vastly superior to 4T9 but the Tier 9 pieces have superior stats in addition to the set bonuses. my math showed that it is beneficial to drop 2T8 if you can equip 4 pieces of T9-258 (the highest ilevel Tier set). Until then, stick with 2T8. The T8 pieces I would use are the legs and shoulders.

Spec Changes:

There is nothing in this patch that will change our spec right away. As long as you’re using a fairly standard raiding build, there is no need to change anything. However, I do want to remind everyone that the 2T9 set bonus will significantly improve the value of the Improved Moonfire. I don't suggest picking it up now, but please keep it in the back of your mind that when you get the set bonus you will probalby want to drop two points from Moonglow and pick up Improved Moonfire.

Balance of Power: Now reduces all spell damage taken by 3/6%, rather than reducing the chance to be hit by spells by 2/4%.

The Tooltip on the PTR said that it also increased your chance to hit by 3/6%. I just want to remind everyone that it actually did not have this impact on the PTR and was likely a typo. Don't expect to see this on live.

Epic Gems:

There are a lot of profession changes in this patch but the changes to Jewelcrafting are probably the most relevant. Epic gems are getting introduced in mass with patch 3.2. Some of you may be thinking about holding off on upgrading your gems, but I recommend against it.

If you’re like me you have 10+ sockets in your gear. If you upgrade all of your sockets then you’re looking at a 30 - 40 stat increase in your spell power. The other thing to remember is that not all fo the fights in the Trials will be available in the first week. They are phasing its release much like they did for Sunwell. Therefore many guilds will still be raiding Ulduar, and you won't be seeing a lot of upgrades from the higher tier of raiding right away.

Also, I know replacing all of your gems right away sounds expensive. However, remember that you can buy them with Emblem's of Heroism. If you’re like me then you have hundreds of Emblems laying around and you can get some more easily buy running heroics now that there will be greater interest again.

My Gear Lists:

I am sure I will get requests to update my gear lists the same day that the patch drops. Unfortunately, with the way I build it, that is not possible. I will update it as soon as possible. The old list was built with a Lunar valuation in mind, but it is still fairly accurate. Just remember that if you have two items with relatively similar values but different stats. The Crit one will be better after the patch.

Random Reminders:

  • Dragon's Eye Gems are no longer Prismatic. If you’re using them to get socket bonuses or meet your meta gem requirements, you need to change them.

  • Item Comparisons: Holding the shift key while hovering over an item will now display the stat differences with the item currently equipped in the relevant slot. - You may not care but this is a big deal to me.

  • New Druid Forms: This is definitely an exciting part of the patch, but I wanted to remind everyone that Moonkin form as not been changed. Don't be surprised when you log in and see the same old gray or yellow moonkin you’re used to.

  • Swift Flight Form: Druids who have acquired a mount able to go 310% flight speed will now also go that speed while in this form. - This is another change I'm excited about, but you may not be. If you have been able to obtain one of the super fast mounts, now you won't have to use it to benefit from it.


oqqiq said...

new eclipse rox!!!

runycat said...

Helpful, as per usual. I've been working on my Horde Boomkin lately, so I've been trying to catch up on what's going on in the Balance world. Are you recommending two-piece T8 and two-piece T9>

runycat said...

That's supposed to be a question mark at the end, there.

Anonymous said...

runny didnt u read it at all ?

as stated above 2t8+2t9 is only good till you can get 4t9 ilvl258. becouse the stats on illv258 is so mutch better than on t8.

Graylo said...


As Anon said going with 2T8 and 2T9 is best until you can get a full set of T9_258. The 2T8 set bonus is just to good especially with the change to eclipse. I can't wait to get in and raid tomorrow to see how I do. I just wish I could get the new idol right away.

runycat said...


Yes, I'm capable of reading. I'm just confirming.



Kring said...

Set bonus are... a bonus. They don't have to be better than the last set bonus of any tier.

Saying 15% crit is better than 4% more damage is like arguing that the 40 haste rating were better than the 50 crit rating on the next tier. Doesn't matter. You get what you get and if you can do good dps with the next tier, that's fine. :-)

4T9 should be better than 2T9+2T8 _in total_. Who cares about the set bonus if the stats make up for it?

The biggest problem of powerful set bonus is that it completely fucks the people who don't have it.

Set bonus should be an optional, funny, nice bonus not a requirement for acceptable dps.

Graylo said...


I think your missing the point. 2T8 is so good that the stats don't make up for it unless you have a full set of T9 at the 258 iLevel.

I completely agree that set bonuses don't have to be a noticeable upgrade from one tier to anothe. In my opinion they should be ruffly equivalent. However, there are times when you get a situation like this one where a set bonus is so good that it is hard or counter productive for blizzard to improve on it.

I'm not saying that blizzard should have given us a better 4T9 set bonus. I'm happy with what it ended up being, but to ignore that 2T8 is significantly better would just be stupid.

Anonymous said...

[quote] Saying 15% crit is better than 4% more damage is like arguing that the 40 haste rating were better than the 50 crit rating on the next tier. [/quote]

i think the bonus isnt so good becouse of the crit bonus to starfire, couse its rly 100% even without it, but more about the +15% dmg to wrath.. thats realy huge bonus when we will use "new" upgraded eclipse.

Kring said...

What I meant is that we should ask Blizzard to nerf the to good bonus and not to buff the other. In my opinion it is wrong if you build your gear around the bonus because it means that all the non set chest, pants, gloves, shoulder and head peaces are about as useful as spell power plate. :-)

We all remember feral T4.2. The problem was not that T5 and T6 was to weak. :-)

Graylo said...

In my opinion all set bonuses should be of a similar relative value, and to be completely honest I am a little surprised that 2T8 wasn't nerfed to some extetnt. However, we need to deal with the situation as it is rather than how it should be or might be or could be.

It's also important to remember that Moonkin were underpowered in Tier 8, a point that Ghostcrawler made a few months ago. I think Moonkin are underpowered for 2 reasons. First, with the nerf to Imp Scorch we lost a lot of DPS while other classes were compensated a little more then we were. Second, our T8 itemization sucked in T8 but was awesome in T7. Therefore as we killed more bosses, other classes improved more from the new gear then we did.

The lost of Imp Scorch will be conpensated for a little bit by the improvement ot Eclipse, and the itemization in T9 is much better than in T8. However, the itemization won't change us over night. We have to kill bosses and pick up loot to see those changes, therefore the OPness of 2T8 is a little bit justified to compensate for our poor itemization in T8.

Vidi of Kargath said...

"Start your rotation as you normally would by applying Fairie Fire and the DoTs. Then pick a nuke and start casting."

Random quibble, but if you're the fellow in the raid responsible for getting the +13% damage on the boss (Earth and Moon), doesn't it make sense to squirt out a quick Wrath after your FF and before the DoTs? Never mind the bonus to our two initial DoTs, I'm thinking about getting the buff up for the rest of the raid's casters so their first couple GCD's get the 13% buff.

Graylo said...


I see your point, but casting DoTs first has its own advantages.

I like putting DoTs up first because it gives the tank a little time to generage threat before I nuke. If you get a couple of unlucky crits you could pull aggro. With 3 GCDs the tank should have a little buffer.

It probably doesn't really matter either way. The DPS gain from having EnM up a couple of seconds earlier is probably pretty small and comes with some added risk. Also, sometimes I will switch targets a little early to debuff the new target before the rest of the raid switchs.

Hotball said...

Yeah, I always put faerie fire first because it's safe. If I happen to target the wrong guy I won't break the sheep or something. It's just a simple safety measure.

When killing a boss, it won't matter either because a few seconds without earth and moon is not a big deal when it takes several minutes to kill the boss.

Dom said...

Quick question for you guys so for regem of all gears I am a JC. So would I pretty much just put the new runed dragon eyes 3 of them in red sockets since they arent pris anymore. Then for the blue slots put in the new Purified Dreadstone or do you think it would be a good idea to put in the new Runed Cardinal Ruby. So pretty much just asking opinions of what to use at each color slot now.

Also I am assuming once we get haste cap of 400 for yellow sockets we would do half sp/ half crit now instead of haste as well

Phil said...

Great, more grind content, fun, oh, wait I don’t like not having fun when playing a game; I wave my little white flag towards the North. There is a reason I haven't gotten exalted with the Sons of Hodir with any of my toons yet. I know shame on me right… But when you have little time to play and you don’t want to just solo it for WEEKS on end what are you to do? I don’t think I can properly explain how much I hate the grind. At least people will want to do 5 mans again.

I wonder what I should do with my old badges. Did someone say what would happen to them?

About our rotation… should we now change our idol during our rotation to get the best result with the new proc system? Or does it not work that way?

~Gargen of Vek’nilash

Kheldar said...


my understanding is that we can use the millions of EoH's we've all stockpiled to buy the new epic gems ?

10 badges for some of them and 20 for others...although i have no idea on the stats of the gems we can purchase.

I'm certainly hoping to be able to kit myself out with improved gems and maybe sell a few on the AH ?

Anonymous said...

Regarding spec changes, does the change on owlkin frenzy have any impact on pve?

Raysa said...

@Graylo - EaM
you are right about the aggro thingy, BUT: i am not realy sure about that, but i think DoTs have to be put up again to get the EaM bonus, right? so if u think of 13% more dmg on ALL first DoTs in your Raid, that sould be alot of dmg. so in dps-critical fights like hodir-hm i would think about this. but i didn't think about that either till now. ^^

sorry, you are totally wrong. in fights like IC-HM or Hodir-HM every second, every single DPS counts! Many Guilds used to kill Hodir-HM within the last 3 seconds and IC-HM is also DPS intensiv in p3.

Graylo said...


How I socket items depends on the item. Take a look at my gear for an example. I skipped the socket bonus on my staff because I get more damage out of two red gems then I would by meeting the socket bonus. In my boots, the sockets are one red and one yellow. Its better to meet the socket bonus because it gives me more damage. Then look at my pants. No red gems. Some people may think I'm an idiot, but I need two blue gems to activate my Meta gem. I might as well meet the socket bonus there because I'm already very close to it. And yes, Reckless to 400 haste and then Potent.


There isn't really a good way to swap idols to take advantage of both. Some people on EJ did some math on the subject and found that it was a very small increase for a lot of work. Just get 25 EoTs as quick as possible and get the new idol.

I bought a ton of gems with my old emblems. If you were quick about it you could have made some decent cash selling the gems on the AH but the prices seemed to have dropped already.


The change to Owlkin Frenzy doesn't change anything for me. I rarely need the extra mana so I is still not a part of my build.


I haven't tested this but I don't think that is how DoTs work. It is my understanding that DoTs and Heals are based upon your current buffs, and the targets current Debuff.

So if you cast your spell before you have all the buffs and debuffs then the first tick will hit for 1000 lets say. Then after all the buffs are applyed in the next 3 second your second tick will hit for 1500.

I could be wrong on this but I think this is a product of when resto druids would roll lifebloom on multiple targets. They would blow trinkets and every buff they could to increase the first spell cast as much as they could. Then after all the buffs and Debuffs went off they would just refresh the spell and maintain the higher level of healing.

Hamlet said...

DoTs use the caster's spellpower and buffs from the moment they're cast. So a DoT cast under the effect of a spellpower trinket proc or a Rune of Power/Shadow Crash will retain its bonus until it expires or is overwritten. Debuffs on the target, however, are applied per tick, so you can apply E&M and see the benefit on the next tick.

Pre-2.2, Lifebloom retained spellpower bonuses when refreshed; now it doesn't. But it still retains a spellpower bonus until refresh even if the bonus fades from the caster before then.

Hotball said...


If you are, say, 1000 damages away from killing a boss even in Heroic mode... (because the DoT works on the debuff, the real effect is even smaller) then you are completely right.

On the other hand, if you happen to aggro a boss and have to pause to let the tank grab the aggro back, you are most likely to lose a lot more damages than the damages you may gain from casting wrath first.

Phil said...

"Having a new rotation will change the way we value stats. Here are the new stat valuations I posted a couple of months ago."

Do you have a post with all the caps. Like Hit has a 237 cap so don't load more than 237 or you are waiting a stat? I need to learn to make better choices when it comes to /rolls for gear

Lilly said...

Since the patch is still quite young and there is a certain EoT's deficit this little owl has a little dilema. Should I let the urge of getting new shiny goodies out and buy the new idol asap or keep the badges for 2xT9 (I have the 245 ones in mind). I know both of the choises should be nice upgrade ... most likely tier will be bigger also due to item upgrade ... I just don't know yet if the difference is significant enough to wait.

EU-Burning Legion

Graylo said...


In my opinion you should go for the idol as soon as you can get it. It is a big upgrade over the other idols available, and fairly cheap. Plus, It will take you weeks to get 2T9.

I don't know what type of raiding guild you are in or what your options are, but also remember that once the Heroic 25man stuff becomes available, you won't need EoTs to get that level of Tier gier.

Sam said...

Can someone explain the meaning of the "with lag" column in the spreadsheet above?

Im in Australia on an Oceanic Server, 500-600ms latency is the norm for everyone here.

Am I right in guessing that Crit is way more valuable than haste under those conditions?

Anonymous said...

I realize you may no longer be responding to comments on this post, but I had a quick question. I'd been feral tanking for a while, and just recently started trying to run as a boomkin. I understand the general rotation, and tend to do pretty well (in pure dps terms) on simple tank n' spank fights. But for more complicated stuff (with various adds, like Freya, or with fancy footwork, like Hodir), I have trouble finding a rotation that works.

I assume that, at some point, adds are too small to bother DOTing and doing an eclipse rotation (though we don't have anything with more burst damage, I guess). Freya's 3-pack, for example, I tend to feel like I don't have time to build up to decent damage before they go down (or, worse, if eclipse procs right off the bat and I get lucky with crits, I can bring my target down far too quickly). Is there a cut down rotation, or some pure burst rotation you would suggest for this sort of thing?

Similarly, for something like Hodir where movement requirements will often prevent us from taking full advantage of eclipse when its procs, should I change my rotation up in some manner?